Sleight of Mouth, Hypnotic Language Patterns: Change Minds & Reframe Beliefs

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Sleight of Mouth
IRC Chat Log, January 7, 1998

 


Sleight of Mouth
JonathanPeople keep coming in from around the globe... Dilts is the primary resource we have on "Sleight of Mouth" -- He has a set of Videos on the subject which you may still be able to get through the Southern Institute.
JoelPDan: Robert Dilts has a 4-video set on Sleight of Mouth that is really good... also, someone has just written a book called 'Mind Lines' that repackages and expands sleight of mouth patterns
PhilAlexDave Barron has a book on it...
misjiefa great book- with exercises
JoelPDan: Mind Lines is by Michael Hall, info is at http://www.neurosemantics.com.
JonathanDave Barron's exercise book is supposed to be good -- I haven't seen it yet -- but I've heard good things from multiple sources. Basically a concise rehash of what's out there, oriented towards real-life practice and use. Barron doesn't think of it as innovative material, though his presentation of it IS!
Dan_25excellent, thank you (begin when ready, just making applicable small talk in the meant time)
JoelPwhere is Barron's book available?
Jonathandbarron@primenet.com
JoelPStygian already posed the question, 'What is Sleight of Mouth'
StygianWhat is "Sleight of hand"? I remember hearing it somewhere
JoelPsleight of hand comes from magic, close up magic & illusions with cards, coins, etc. Sleight of Mouth patterns are a coding of what Robert Dilts observed Richard Bandler doing naturally in conversation
JonathanMagicians use Sleight of Hand to distract you from what they're really doing... Lets get it rockin in here... What I want to propose to everyone is that we keep our sights aimed low and go way higher! Lets not expect to gracefully get through every pattern... Lets choose just a few, and hash em out really well! So that everyone leaves with some really useful stuff about those particular patterns. Anyone can get Barron's book or the videos to get a full list. We don't need that here!
Dan_25rather do several very well than all of them superficially. . .
JonathanCool! OK. {lots of yes answers omitted} The intent of Sleight of Mouth, basically, is to use concise language patterns and intelligence to adjust the thinking of other people. Right? Others? As you understand them? (granted I don't give all the answers out -- I want people jumping IN!!!)
misjiefprecision
JoelPto break up, reinforce, or reshuffle generalizations
PlayRto manipulate them to do my bidding...
JoelPthat depends on your intent, PlayR
misjiefI prefer entice rather the manipulate
Dan_25agreed, use of language to adjust the structure of a thought process (often abruptly?)
JonathanPlayR we need to have a talk ;) lol
PlayR;) lol
JoelPthe basic premise is that words set frames around our experience and shape reality... Sleight of Mouth redefines and reshapes those reali-tease
JonathanWhat about.... to open up belief systems?
misjiefOpen up unforeseen possibilities
JonathanWhat about... to have another method for identifying and adjusting another's deep structure... (another method than the Meta-Model, for example) Note that the Meta-Model is not for adjusting -- it's primarily for identifying
Dan_25reality. . . hmmm. . how about world models? :)
JonathanLike 12" globes that spin, Dan?
PhoenixI think its how to never lose an argument.
Dan_25more than reality, why yes I do! lol
JonathanLike, context reframing like the last comment?
misjiefPhoenix- how about win - win! An even playing field
Phoenixthat assumes a lot. I am commenting on Why RB did, does, and will continue too
misjiefRB?
JonathanRB= Bandler
PhoenixI use them to keep my sanity which ever ones I find useful
JonathanPhoenix, when you say that assumes a lot... can you clarify... point out what it assumed for the group ;)
Phoenixthe win-win. Some people think that a win-win situation exists. I think that is a frame or reality that is perceived but doesn't exist. I'll type slower.
Dan_25i think everything is a frame or reality that is perceived but doesn't exist. . .
JonathanIts a nice ideal, isn't it? (Jonathan is playing now)
Phoenix I agree with Dan
misjiefWin-Win there is power and then there is perceived power
Jonathanahhhhh now we're down to "everything I say is a lie"
treflurkswillingly do win-win situations in business... I must be crazy...
misjiefI can win and then step down a notch
Dan_25OR :everything I say is truth"
JonathanWhich is a basic presup from which to begin to accept that we can't TOTALLY know another person's deep structure... or more to the point... we don't NEED to TOTALLY know another person's deep structure.
PhoenixI personally believe in a more generative than win-win, such as improve-improve
JonathanCOOOOL Phoenix!
Dan_25I believe it's "everything thing I say is relative to my perceptions", at least that's relative to my perceptions :)
Phoenixwin-win is results I feel and think direction IE: processes and processes of improvement. loop-de-loop-de-loop
Jonathanok...
PhilAlexWin win, or Improve Improve is good, but some people don't have a WIN unless you LOSE.
Jonathanooooh, OK lets take an example of that Phil. Create a scenario of that, would you? As complete as you can from memory... PhilAlex
Phoenixis more inline with the processes vs diagnostics
misjiefDan- and perhaps more importantly - your listener's perceptions
Dan_25ah, it's an either/or situation. . . either I win or I lose
PlayRis that necessarily true Dan?
Dan_25agreed misjief
JonathanFolks lets deal with an example that we can bring in some Sleight of Mouth too.
Dan_25no, not at all, just continuing the thought posed by PhilAlex
PlayRoh, I see..
Dan_25plenty of opportunity posed thus far, please continue Jonathan
PhilAlexWell, some people's model of dealing is that if you don't lose, or appear to, they can STILL cut a better deal...
JonathanRight.
misjiefI agree with that in the sense that you have to "talented" enough to always beat the bully...... Then you can win quickly and then step back in-line with him

Round 1: What Comes First
JonathanOK lets get specific. PlayR comes in to JoelP's car dealership to trade in his car.
PlayRkewl..
JonathanPlayR sees the new car he wants and wants to pay as little as he can for it, while getting the most off his previous car. JoelP wants to sell the new car for as high as he can, and pay as little as he reasonably can for the old car.
PlayRYea!
JoelP, PlayR*nods*
JonathanOK. Big dilemma.
PlayRseemingly... wasn't it?
JonathanWe have a toward and an away-from motivation, from each person, for each of the 2 parts of the bargain. And ALL of them conflict. Do they not?
PlayRseemingly...
JonathanCan anyone notice ways in which their goals do not conflict?
PlayRperhaps Joel wants a satisfied customer who will bring him more biz... so he can make EVEN more money! in the long run... or not.
`Odin`Larry Elison's (of Oracle) business strategy is "It's not good enough that I win, someone must lose"
JonathanThats why I don't usually recommend Oracle. Next ;) LOL Odin
JoelP*laughing*
PlayRthat's a short term vision
JoelPand a game-oriented metaphor
JonathanOK JoelP -- can you notice ways in which PlayR might want something that meets with "your" outcomes (Hi new arrivals we're in the middle of some examples -- )
PlayRI MIGHT be willing to pay more if I felt I was getting something of value.. if Joel was providing other value than just the car.. that could be lots of other things...
JoelPmaybe he wouldn't want to rake me over the coals in case I had sweeter deals on other cars in the future
JonathanAHHAH!
PlayRservice
JonathanOK. So Stop for a second.
PlayRIf he provided greater service.. I'd pay for that..
JonathanBefore we have ANY clue how to use Sleight of Mouth... what are we doing? What is this process we're exploring?
misjiefreframe
PlayR2nd position.
treflurksnegotiation
Tiger_elaborate
JoelP*nods*. And positive intentions -- all very closely related
JonathanConsidering every position possible
PlayR2nd AND 3rd position?
Jonathanlooking at all the angles, looking for ways to adjust the other persons thinking or... even more powerful... use their own potential motivations to help us all win... And we're back to the potential win-win hallucination
PlayRhallucination? or goal..
misjiefI like that
JonathanWell, all this is a lie, right? ;)
JoelPwhat's the difference? :)
JonathanThe difference between me? OK. Someone used "reframe" {choke}
JoelPhehehehe no the difference between the carpet
misjiefCause in reality unless to fair refs meet someone has to win
JonathanMAN that's an overused word. But accurate, perhaps...! Reframe is just to adjust the context... in the way you used it...
misjiefWhat would you suggest in the future?
JonathanI only suggest a clearer understanding of what reframing is all about.
PlayRcontinue to Sleight of Mouth..
JonathanSee there are basically 2 forms of it. And it IS useful to understand reframing for Sleight of Mouth... very useful indeed.... so you can know where Sleight of Mouth goes beyond reframing.
PlayRContext or Content?
JoelPPlayR: yes
JonathanRichard years ago once said reframing was really limited by itself... and that he found something which was MUCH better... he called it... (correct PlayR those are the two). He called it REBLAMING.
Dan_25:)
PlayRthat doesn't sound useful...
JonathanWhich is like, you find some random person on the street, you blame them for all your troubles, yell at em a little bit and you feel MUCH better, and its a lot faster too.
PlayRahhh...
treflurksi trust RB
PlayRalways? in everything? hmmm...
treflurksPlayR: In general
JonathanOn the other hand, if ecology is something you're after... NOOOOWOWWWWWW... as a built in process instead of something you have to check with by staring at the slight twitch of the eyebrow and going "ooooh lets see the color change of the nostril; gee, what does that mean?" Then you don't have to blame anyone and you don't have to yell at anyone, and you automatically keep in mind that people have a right to be themselves and you don't want to take away their options, you just wanna CREATE MORE.
PlayRoh.. me too... ;)
JonathanCREATE MORE. So. I'm backing off for a few minutes.... to allow the group to explore ways of doing 2 things.
(1) Get Joel to give the deal to PlayR on PlayR's terms.
(2) Get PlayR to give the deal to Joel on Joel's terms.
You have your assignments. Change the context. Do time distortion. Find what beliefs are involved. work as a GROUP! GO TO IT! Exercise.... begin!
JoelPthat's the essence of being generative, 'creating more'
PlayRhow does this relate to Sleight of Mouth?
treflurksummm...meet halfway?
PlayRContext... think of different situations in which this could be beneficial..
JoelPcreate a new frame or context in which the most important criteria of both people can be met
PlayRfor both. What does this mean in a different context?
JonathanNahhn nahhh nahhhh, get specific, people, you're still theoretical!!! You have a car deal to make happen! Make it happen!
JonathanForget the middle ground... this is about using Sleight of Mouth to convince the other guy to go your way.
PlayRPerhaps if I got a good deal that would mean I would come back to him for my next car... I could imply future transactions..?
misjiefOkay- lets pick a side and go with it
JonathanAssignment (1) first.
PlayRHe could become my de facto car salesman.. refer all my friends... IF I get a good deal..
JonathanJoel should resist, but everyone should pretend to be PlayR and convince Joel to do the deal PlayRs way
misjief- first lets find out what the dealer wants- then find a way to match it or beat it
PlayRHe might loose 200 on THIS deal... BUT he could make it up on my referrals... the idea is to REFRAME, contextually... so think of a different context in which his giving us a good deal would be beneficial for HIM, like a future deal, or a deal with some of my friends
JoelPPlayR, the real issue isn't whether I come out ahead on the deal, but whether you are satisfied enough over time to send me referrals
PlayRTrue... I have to get you to agree though.
JoelPno you don't :)
PlayRIf you dont then there is no deal. You lose the sale.
JoelPsure there is!
SIGABRTIts not realistic to lose money on the hope you will get more business. period.
Dan_25but if you get more referrals, won't you come out ahead on the deal in the long run?
JoelPsorry, just disagreeing with you
PlayRIs it realistic to loose money to make money? Isn't that what INVESTMENT is?
SIGABRTNot when it hinges on an IF. Investing is RISK, not LOSS
PlayRaren't you investing in the other person and his continued goodwill ?
Jonathan(lurk mode off) What about providing a SINGLE & POWERFUL counter-example to his belief that he has to make money on this deal? (lurk mode on again)
Dan_25SIG, is going in debt to start a new business losing money? has a negative money, yet we'd have few businesses without that. . .
PlayRIF he made no money on the deal, but made the sale.. his quota for the month would look better.
misjiefOkay- let do the math (figuretively) so that we know what he needs to make to earn a fair living and also so we know when he is cheating us
JoelPit's realistic to lose money SHORT TERM to make more in the long term
SIGABRTNot necessarily... you dont lose money.. you buy stuff with it... lose = gone & get nothing
PlayRRight Joel... RIght SIG! Invest! It's an investment...
misjiefif you know the bluebook value the dealer has to make 8% to break even
treflurksHow often do you think PlayR buys a car, every two years? and how much do you make on a car? Is a life time of car margins better than a high tag on this one?
Phoenixhmmm are we still talking about Sleight of Mouth
PlayRI'm wondering that also..
JonathanYes & NO... thanks for the structure...
Dan_25if you don't make this sale, your profit is $0. . . what's better, no money or some money?
PlayRHow does Sleight of Mouth relate?
JonathanThis is a group exploration. How are *you* using Sleight of Mouth to convince Joel?
SIGABRTThis all assumes that Joel will be able to make money in the future. Losing money sets a precedent
JonathanYou don't need to know Sleight of Mouth explicitly to reframe ideas... but we can add to the pot here.
misjiefif you don't know what he has to make on his side of the line - how do you know if you being fair and more importantly that you are not being taken
treflurks"Are you going to be in business, for a few years, and sell me several cars? Or are you planning on getting the most you can for this car, and going out of business next year?
JonathanWhat about finding out the logical levels that Joel's statements have been at... and flying up or down in the logical level hierarchy?
PlayRI would say: Joel, I'm not sure just what it is you do when you go inside and convince yourself that you really want to DO THIS DEAL.. but as you imagine all the FUTURE deals you will have and see all the money you WILL Make as a result of having provided good deals now wont you be glad you did? didn't you? ;)
JonathanThose are good language patterns, PlayR... and using presuppositions and embedded commands are all good.... Guys (& Gals if we have female participants) Joel's comments have been very specifically located at two levels.
Dan_25I can understand how not considering all the benefits from selling this car to me at a fair price could lead you to not wanting to do it now
JonathanWhen he speaks of others, he's speaking about their feelings (which is often placed at the identity level), When he speaks of himself, he's speaking mostly about the environment. If you're going to get him to change easily... what if you met him in his own understanding about these levels... and flipped the program on him, made a suggestion that isn't far from his own beliefs... then jumped back to the original combo?
Phoenixhey, PlayR buy the car or you have no sexual future
PlayRlol Phoenix -- Jonathan, could you reiterate WHICH statement he made in that regard? I can't find it...
Phoenixgood humor lets stat there
Jonathanhehehheh!!!!
PlayRice cream?
misjiefI think the art of Sleight of Mouth - is the ability to see and play both sides of the line like playing checkers against yourself..... it is almost always a close game
JonathanALRIGHT! Joel wrote: "PlayR, the real issue isn't whether I come out ahead on the deal, but whether you are satisfied enough over time to send me referrals
PlayRright
JonathanWhat if PlayR said (giving the example here) in response, I see your point about my satisfaction and how you do on the deal. What about your own satisfaction for having let another good customer complete a deal that they can actually afford, knowing perhaps that they might go out and offer their friends a recommendation for you and your integrity? I reversed logical levels in that example. Joel has to play 2nd position to understand the remark. (practically anyway)
Dan_25ahhhh
JoelPvery true
PlayRso we are getting him to see our point of view, right? Using Sleight of Mouth..
JonathanYES! Or come closer, anyway.
JoelPI was simply playing with some patterns
PlayRkewl...
JonathanHow close would a comment like the above have worked for you, JoelP, if you were the dealer? Or at least, tilted the scales in PlayR's direction?
JoelPit would have worked great
Jonathank. Listen up people... and think about it differently. It's not the language pattern you pick to do your reframing. That's ICING. Pay attention to the DEEP structure you're hearing. The keys to the kingdom are RIGHT THERE in front of you if you pay attention more closely... think faster... and talk slower...
JoelPit's the perception that generates the language that really counts
JonathanYES JOEL!
JoelPeach sleight pattern comes from asking questions like, 'what is the other person not noticing or paying attention to in this context'?
JonathanFor me to make Sleight of Mouth work... I have to understand how you understand. Just using language patterns to embed commands... and future pace... works for &(#*$ -- if I haven't taken the time & energy to understand the deep structure. Make sense people?
PlayRtheir deep structure is missing some things..
Dan_25are you implying that the other person isn't noticing or paying attention to their own deep structure then Jonathan?
PlayRYou mean future pacing does NOT work unless you understand deep structure... right?
JonathanNot anywhere NEAR as well as it would when you've taken the time to learn HOW to adjust their deep structure, then future pace the adjustment!
PlayRHow might one future pace this example... or is it already? {Editor's comment -- it was already future-paced.}
Phoenixwant to qualify deep structure
JonathanI imply that very few people know their deep structure, Dan! Here's the simple answer. Surface Structure's what you hear. Deep Structure's what you don't. ;)
Dan_25ok ,just making sure i follow consciously :)
PlayRthink faster, talk slower... I like that..
JonathanALL the other person's perceptions. All their understandings. All their kino inconsistencies and misunderstandings... it all plays a role and most people have very little understanding of their own deep structure.
PlayRUNLESS they are DEEP...
Dan_25so understanding deep structure, you'd say, is much more important than simply running through various Sleight of Mouth patterns to find the one that works best?
JonathanDefinitely! You rarely have time to cycle thru a list... when you really need it all to work right!
JoelPmaybe a good understanding of BOTH is important
grazzhpprfwiw - there were several posts on usenet - alt.psychology.nlp - recently on Sleight of Mouth techniques. Anyone interested can search dejanews on the subject: Sleight of Mouth Patterns and you should pick up the articles
Questor_Are there any books that discuss Sleight of Mouth?
Dan_25Questor: Robert Dilts 4 video-tapes on Sleight of Mouth/Southern Institute, Mind Lines by Michael Hall (www.neurosemantics.com), Dave Barron dbarron@primenet.com (text)
grazzhpprDavid Barron has a workbook on it and I think maybe Dilts discusses it
JonathanThe Reese's at the Southern Institute sold me my Sleight of Mouth videos.
JoelPsame here
JonathanGood stuff. A little dry, but also elegant.
PhoenixDilts sleight of mouth is great for patterns not for congruency
grazzhpprphoenix - why?
Phoenixwatch them with sound off and then sound on you'll notice it. Everyone I've showed to esp. not nlp people go HUH
JoelPDilts is definitely more of an intellectual than an entertainer, but Phoenix is 100% right, the patterns are great
JonathanI hear a lot of people say Dilts' material is dry. Let me comment on that. I agree its more dry than the showmanship of Bandler, LaValle, etc... I watched those videos before attending a Prac & Master Track. And I fell asleep. I thought, watch Bandler, watch Dilts. No comparison (this is my opinion before the 1st two major training's). But then, I came back after those training's... and then... I thought... this guy is ELEGANT...
Phoenixverbal yes, body language no.
JonathanI mean, he is REALLY subtle... a very gifted multi-channel communicator, and I guess he just likes to be that subtle. I agree with you completely, Phoenix. SO, Lets move on shall we?
Phoenixnow onto the MEAT!
grazzhppr& potatoes
JonathanTHERE THE MAN HIMSELF is... Dave Barron... the author of the Sleight of Mouth workbook.... better get your pen Dave... people are probably gonna order a few copies...
Dan_25dave, you're going to sell a lot of books tonight - lol
JonathanYou can send me a couple as thanks ;) LOL - OK folks! If you want to order any of Dave's workbooks, ask him over private chat rather than in channel, or wait until the chat's over. COOL? Moving on in topic....
dbarronWHAT you, YOU want... :-) Great! I am glad you like them. Email me dbarron@primenet.com
Tosha1dbarron: how is your book better than "The Advanced Language Patterns" by McLaughlin?
dbarronjust more example....more exercises...
JonathanTake it offline or wait until we're done, please
Tosha1sorry
Jonathans'ok! Lets just keep the channel clear for open discussion. personally I hope Dave sells a bunch, but the channel is not for sales. {During a scheduled chat, anyway!}

Round 1: Belief Adjustments
JonathanThis is Sleight of Mouth too... in case anyone's wondering. I just think these tricks are really kewl! I like to find out where people's responses are coming from. Generally their statements or behaviors are context dependent...
PhoenixLIKE "this doesn't suck"
Jonathan;) yes! And if a content or context reframe (or outframe) doesn't work, or if I'm feeling up to a different approach, now. If I want to make a very powerful adjustment using Sleight of Mouth, one way is to find out what that behavior or choice or decision is dependent on, and then, what that in turn is dependent on. If you can find a simple way to use Sleight of Mouth on one of the PRE-CURSORS to what you're listening to... you can topple all the dominoes that lead up to their present issue!!! And sometimes you can set it up to be as simple as telling them the time of day. Does this make sense conceptually?
dbarronyou bet!
JonathanSomeone needs to give me an example of a simple problem they have -- a real one.
bro_phaving difficult motivating myself to exercise
dbarronI am a bit afraid of quitting my job. Real enough?
PlayRI cant get motivated to work out either.. especially morning runs..
JonathanLets use Dave's. This is cool.
Phoenixi loose my...uh...my... focus, yeah that's it
PlayRwhere is that prop system I had. on fridge door?
Jonathanlet em rip folks, lets see what the best one is then
Dan_25i need to make more money so i can attend more NLP training's
grazzhppr... I'm waiting on a raise & if it's not enough I'll be quitting - but I want to give em a chance to up the $ ... something like "that was a very generous offer but...."
JonathanFolks, before we get into this... Dave Barron has to leave in a few {editor's comment: I knew through a private chat}. So as a last recommendation, email him at dbarron@primenet.com
dbarronthank you
Dan_25already did :)
Dan_25so did we decide on one Jonathan?
JonathanKewl. Alright, getting down to it... Lets use YOURS Dan, making more money to attend more NLP Training's, because I dealt with this one when I was acquiring training's myself.
Dan_25it could be mutually beneficial, after all :) ok. . .
JonathanAlright. So in order to attend NLP training's, you need to make more money? Hmmmm
StefanLThat's a complex equivalence, right?
Dan_25in order to attend MORE NLP training's, i need to make MORE money, yes
Phoenixsharon says: SO DO I
Jonathancomplex equivalence is different...: earning more money = attending more training's ;)
JoelPit's a cause-effect
Dan_25in order to do x, i need to do y
JonathanSome trainers offer payment plans, so you wouldn't have to come up with it all at once. (i.e. remove the need for everything up front, change the implication of attending). Right?
Phoenixbut not some trianers who train for other trainers
JonathanLOL, Phoenix ;)
Dan_25agreed. . . should i counter that?
JonathanGO FOR IT! This is the meat & potatoes!
`Odin`Can I have rice instead?
StefanLOk, and attending more training's requires more money isn't really implied then
JonathanWe spent a lot of time explaining the art of approaching the use of Sleight of Mouth. right... StefanL. Dan? Countering?
Dan_25well, not necessarily a counter, BUT realizing that and following that action, i am still limited on the number of training's i can take at this point in a given year because. . . i need to eat
Jonathanof course. Lets change the meaning of that belief. (from an external perspective). DO you think that attending a training would give you skills to earn more money faster, or to be more congruent in your present position which could allow you to achieve a promotion faster or work more effectively?
JoelPDan: is it that you need to make more money, or that you need to expand the value you have to offer others?
Dan_25that is among my beliefs Jonathan. . but I am viewing this thought at this particular point in time
JonathanSo it stands to reason, as you imagine having taken a training and begun to use your skill to acquire additional revenues or attract more business, that you could easily have the training pay for itself, could you not? You could, couldn't you?
Dan_25JoelP: yes, part of the reason I'm exploring NLP. . . Jonathan, I'm in education so my salary is set (within my current job)
JonathanSure, Dan, I understand. Most teachers who want to get ahead don't do things on the side, do they?
Dan_25that is certainly a possibility
JonathanAhhh, STOP! we've changed CAN'T to CAN. The modal operator of Possibility is now opened up for us. Everyone review how that was done.
kalleein what way is needing more money for NLP inviting you to EFFECTIVELY apply your (already existing) skills to create what you need for yourself?
JoelPkallee: very good!
JonathanVery kewl kallee!!!
Jonathan;) - kallee is a Master Prac too Joel ;)
JoelPbut of course! :)
Dan_25hmm. . . but FUTURE possibility, following the training's, or is that the point? :)
JonathanAbsolutely Dan. Time means little to someone using Sleight of Mouth. ;) {big grin}
PhoenixHow about "What USED to stop you know more"
Dan_25ok, then you had won, we had won, before we even started.. . . NEXT!
JonathanLOL Phoenix this chat is getting GOOD!!! Sure. The way I would have gone, had we continued ;) would be to take CAN to MIGHT, then MIGHT to PROBABLY WILL, then PROBABLY WILL to *** GOTTA HAVE IT *** !!! I can use Sleight of Mouth much more gracefully if I look quietly at small incremental state or belief adjustments.
Phoenixand Know more about How you can , now, apply all that you learn in more ways than you , have imagined.
Dan_25ok, group hug, thanks guys :)
JonathanSo let me know when you want the Prac Registration packet faxed to you ;) LOL. JUST kidding. Someone else? Lets choose something different.
dmaxCan I comment on what just happened?
JonathanSure. {Pausing} and we may break soon, too, it is getting late (for people's patience here on IRC, anyway)
dmaxWhen you asked for a problem, you set it up so that you would both share an outcome. Doesn't that make it easier?
JonathanNot really. Because we ALWAYS both share an outcome. I just might have to keep chunking up until we find the shared outcome...
dmaxokay
Phoenixlets switch outcome to direction since nothing is a static
Jonathandoes that make sense or do you want to propose a more difficult example and we'll just breeze through the chunk-up process? OK Phoenix, I like your style... direction it is... the shared direction
Dan_25I'm also very open to allow myself to consider possibilities and pursue them. OK, someone obnoxious throw out a problem -- lol
JonathanSure... and that made it easier more than the shared direction (Obnoxious? LOL)
Dan_25or not

Beginning to Summarize
JonathanWell I think its getting kind of late, and I want to have time.... to let everyone in the group know (again) -those who didn't yet know... that instead of listing each pattern, which is a VERY DRY academic approach... I wanted to "install" in those folks who didn't know a lot about Sleight of Mouth... an understanding of the INTENT behind it, and the thinking that goes on before you even begin to USE Sleight of Mouth with people! I hope we've been successful providing some examples of the use of Sleight of Mouth and the logic behind several examples. Anyone who wants an academic listing and such, do contact David Barron, or get the videos from the Southern Institute, (let em know I sent-ya!), or, attend a training. You get most of them these days in a good Prac training, and they definitely take more than 90-120 minutes to master and get them installed in your speaking behavior! But they're not hard to learn, and they're FUN to use with each other! Half the fun of a training is using language patterns on each other!
glen_sterthanks for taking the time to educate us Jonathan!!!!!
JoelPyou get to have 'Frame Wars' with your friends :)
JonathanLOL Joel "how Pithy"!
PhoenixI don't believe it
JonathanAnd don't do any of that re-blaming stuff
Dan_25learned a lot, had a lot to learn. . . can I request a future discussion topic to extend/complement this one?
JonathanYou betcha -- we've been discussing it offline the last hour or so ;) big grin
StefanLBut treading lightly, so you don't turn into a "meta monster"
Dan_25metaprograms! can this be practically discussed in this forum?
Jonathansure!
dmaxCan someone give a url for the Southern Institute?
bro_pcan get the link from Jonathan's site... dmax, check out: http://www.altfeld.com/mastery/nlplinks.html
Jonathanhehheh thanks broP -- I *do* have their link there that's true. You'll find the Southern Institute's site linked on that page
dmaxthanks again
bro_pkewl
JonathanActually Dan, I have an old log of a metaprograms chat here that I have to get online. It was a flirting & metaprograms chat. I didn't put it up earlier b/c most or all the attendees are from a different mailing list. I'll sanitize the names or something to put it up on the website.
Dan_25let me know when it's up, my conscious metaprogram and Sleight of Mouth could use a boost :)
JonathanListen folks... we're closing up shop here... but if any of you have ANY questions about advanced NLP & DHE topics... PHOENIX MORGAN is the man to ask... I'm lucky enough to get him to come down to Tampa in April to co-train a Practitioner course with me! So fire away while you have him here!!! Phoenix? will you take a few?
Phoenixreally...lets get him on here! Sure always willing to learn.
JonathanPhoenix's been training with Richard for YEARS, and is generally recognized at training's (recognized as TALL) as having more training than most of the other trainers and participants there. I'm telling you... if you miss this opportunity to ask a long term expert AND Richard buff... you don't know what you're missing folks!
Dan_25phoenix, curiously, what has been the most powerful technique(s) you have learned? is there 1-2-3 you can pinpoint? meta-modeling?
PhoenixAnd I thought my size 13's were too big already! What was discussed here is really the fundamental ATTITUDE "Flexibility". There is meta-pattern to how Sleight of Mouth was created and you can create MORE! RB created Sleight of Mouth by using the pattern of... "Never do what works twice...
Jonathan(folks, Dilts formalized it, he didn't create it)
PhoenixDo something different EVERY TIME...
bro_pwhy
Dan_25ah. . . just to find a variety of what yields the outcome of what you desire?
Phoenix...because if what you do next doesn't get the results you want... ...you go back to where you did get the direction you desired and do something ANYTHING DIFFERENT. Over a period of time TRACKING what works & what doesn't & then organized into categories by Dilts is how we get Sleight of Mouth's! There is a HUGE amount of the bases of NLP and its creation and continuing innovation. Think about applying the strategy in a field you had a challenge with. ?'s ?
Dan_25and the most productive way of discovering a variety of approaches to what works/doesn't work is perhaps a training?
Phoenixhmmm, depends on a lot. But if the training's Jonathan's, definitely. :)
Jonathan;) thanks to Phoenix for the compliment

Getting Silly
Dan_25look at that PLUG in the wall. oops, where were we?
Phoenixwell, we are OUTLETting new ideas of ELECTRIC thought
JoelPwe have to keep CURRENT though
JonathanOr you could look at that PLUG in reverse and GULP it all down completely ahhhhhh tasty
JoelPunless one of us is AC-DC
Dan_25or we'll be ZAPPED by the curse of the past
Phoenixhmmm, the net trance is in full swing and here come the funny logical's
JoelPsilly Neuro-Linguini Programmsters :)
Dan_25(back to context reframing)
PhoenixWell lets CHARGE forward our BATTERY of knowledge and en LIGHT ON the world
StefanLProgrammsters, Pranksters you mean.
Dan_25generative change. . .
JonathanI sure get a CHARGE out of these topics ... generative change = Inflationary dimes

Actually Reaching Closure
PhoenixWell, I will wrap up and say THANKS JONATHAN you keep the flame of curiosity burning brighter than anyone I know and with one flame you DO light up the world
JonathanYou guys have ALL been great here. This went REALLY well. Thanks to all of you -- you folks are what make it work.
bro_pAgreed
Dan_25Best one thus far I've attended, thanks Jonathan, and EVERYBODY!!!
JonathanThat's why I don't start out with a lecture. That's why I don't start with academic lists. If you don't get the intent, you'll never use the list (which you can get elsewhere, anyway).
dmaxThanks
Dan_25Keep in mind topics requests for the future (metaprograms! metaprograms! metaprograms!)
JonathanWill Do.
PhoenixEye eye, captain!

IRC CHAT OVER!

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