NLP Products Chat Transcript (held in 1998, not current!)

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NLP Products

IRC Chat Log, June 7, 1998 -- Relevant only until 1998!! 

(No longer current!)

NLP Products
Jonathan Alrighty folks... thanks for joining in!
anakin ok
Jonathan Are we ready to start? (y/n)
anakin, Roy_Kirk, msjill, Occum y
Jonathan It alllll started years ago... but for me it started more recently than that... because I was first exposed to NLP (UNknowingly) by watching Tony Robbins infomercials. And I thought to myself... "they're DOING something with me... and I'm not sure what... but its VERY influential..." And when I first actually heard of NLP, and found that it involved learning language patterns for persuasion, etc., I thought... maybe this has something to do with those infomercials I was seeing.... so when I first decided to learn NLP it was because I wanted to ARM myself against the growing use of these same patterns in advertising all around us. For info on NLP and advertising, there's another chat up on the website. But really, I started out learning NLP BECAUSE I wanted to prevent the use of the patterns on my, without my knowledge. I had no idea there was so much more to explore and learn in NLP about improving my life, improving the lives of people around me... being more influential in sales etc.... and I had no idea that there was so much more to explore. Rapport... for example. Charisma.... ohhhh... CHARISMA.... in a big way! Health... congruency in goals... clearing away uncertainty and confusion... wow.
anakin How do rapport and charisma differ? IMHO they seem the same.
Jonathan Charisma, in my opinion, is about the natural magnetic energy you give off to people.... rapport is something you share to some degree... with 1 or more other people. You can be charismatic... without anyone else around. ;)
anakin high energy?
Jonathan But to be in rapport... aside from being in rapport with yourself ;) you have to be in rapport with someone or something else. It can be high energy, yes. (let me continue!)
anakin ok
Jonathan Now. So there are ALL these different area of life that NLP can help us with... and the question is... with all of these areas to explore... how do we begin to choose in what direction to explore NLP skills? There are those here who want to do healing work. There are those here who want to boost their sales. Other areas of NLP exploration include... as was mentioned... spirituality, congruency, normal conversations with just about anyone.... politics, law, etc etc etc AD INFINITUM! This goes on & on & on....
Jonathan Yes, Occum, because we can never learn it ALLLLL....
Roy_Kirk I'm jumping out of my chair yelling, "YES! YES! I WANT IT ALL!"
Roy_Kirk doh!
Jonathan But even though we'll never get through it ALLLLl, and that includes trainers, by the way ;) we can ALWAYS pursue more of what we want. and you can learn general things about all of the above by taking a practitioner course. But some people don't have the time or money to spare. Personally I think the people that really want a lot of the above can't afford to not spare the time & money. But thats a separate issue! What about PRODUCTS? What kinds of things are available for us to buy, etc., in order to help us learn more NLP? Because even if you do go to a training, typically you'll want to have some books to read... some tapes to listen to... some videos to watch... etc. Now. There are a LOT of trainers out there -- Who have created some great tapes & such... and Master Practitioners who have USED NLP to create packaged methodologies... modeled from experts (Think of the Mega-Memory course.)
msjill is it economical to go to a trainer?
Jonathan Jill, based on what most people get from a great trainer, yes, I think so. But a select few people go back to their normal everyday patterns and don't use what they learn. So. It's caveat emptor - buyer beware, and, you have to take responsibility for your own learning too. Yes, it is economical to go to a trainer. Nothing else is as experiential. And it is the fastest way to experientially learn the skills. Before I continue.... lets open up a debate or discussion (brief) on the kinds of products you all already may have purchased... and when you do... give a BRIEF description of the content and your review of the products. Give product/tape name, author/trainer's name, quick description of content, & your evaluation of quality!
Occum Well so far all I have are Tony Robbins books: "Awaken the Giant Within", and "Unlimited Power." While I think their not a bad overview and primer I've heard that there is a lot better, and more specific stuff out there.
Jonathan Bandler's "NeuroSonics" Personal Enhancement Series is available on 6 Cassettes for $130, or 6 CD's for $160.
Roy_Kirk I have bought and read many books, but esp. if you are reading it in a book, you need someone to practise on, which I find hard to find...example: I don't know many people who ask me to cure their phobias...I also don't know anyone that would be comfortable while I try to hypnotize them (Transformations)
Jonathan Very true Roy. Thats why NLP study groups in your area can be REALLY helpful, if you can set them up!
anakin Kenrick Cleveland's Maximum Persuasion has impressed me. It focuses on the business aspects of NLP. Covering the basics of rapport, criteria elicitation, NLP embedded commands and some basic logic techniques.
Roy_Kirk not a bad idea!
Jonathan Others?
Roy_Kirk Yeah, thats the ticket! Thanks Jon!
Roy_Kirk May I ask a question about the Bandler recordings?
Jonathan Occum -- Yes, Tony's books are great primers, no doubt about it. Sure, Roy!
msjill Everyone knows of Bandler, does he offer stuff in this field?
Jonathan Bandler & La Valle's Persuasion Engineering tapes are EXCELLENT.
anakin I read the Persuasion Engineering book but it didn't give enough exercises.
Jonathan Jill - Bandler is one of NLP's co-founders.
anakin For me at least.
Roy_Kirk I plan on getting PE, but I was wondering, you hear rumors about Bandler teaching everything indirectly, speaking just to the subconcious that true? And does he use that technique in his tapes?
Wild1 Get the tapes they will teach you more about language that you will ever believe
Jonathan Yes, Roy, absolutely. He just tells stories that seem to oooze together ;)
Occum Jill, Bandler is on of the founders of NLP, and he continues to be one of the innovaters.
Roy_Kirk That amazes me.
Wild1 Each time I listen to the Persuasion Engineering tapes I learn someting new
Jonathan Anakin -- the book didn't give enough exercises ;) that may be true... the Persuasion Engineering tapes go into a LOT more detail and tell a lot more stories!
Occum Well Anakin, I havent bought his course yet, but what I've grabbed off the web has been phenomenal.
anakin True
Roy_Kirk Anakin: I haven't heard it either, but I know many people who swear by Kenrick. I was in a conference call with him, also. Twas damn good and educational.
Occum I would like to get some of Dilts stuff.
Jonathan Well, word has it that his material is strong in the persuasion area. But I don't know his material. Surrounding the topic of Kenrick I have often heard veiled comments about a checkered past. As of today, I've met him online just once, and he seemed eager to be up-front and to rebuild his reputation. If anyone has questions about him, I think if they're going to direct those questions to other people, then they should also ask him directly, rather than only spreading rumors. And as you say, Anakin, you really enjoy his work and there are others who have said the same thing. Apart from those comments (hopefully balanced), I know very little about his work.
anakin But it seemed to be presented in a very straight forward manner. You really begin to become aware of how naturally you can persuade now.;)
Occum Strategies of genius, and Sleight of mouth.
Wild1 I saw Dilts in Jan.
Jonathan ok ok anakin -- what you may not know -- is that Milton Model patterns don't go over very well in chatrooms ;) except for having fun.
Wild1 I can tell you that he is so smooth
anakin hahaha
Jonathan I haven't seen him in person but I have a lot of Dilts videos and he IS smooth.
Wild1 You would never guess he is using loops at all
Jonathan His intent is usually more obvious, as well.
Jonathan His direction is pretty clear.
anakin dilt's web site is pretty cool.
Occum What about NLP stuff focusing on Education, Teaching, and Learning, whats good out there?
Jonathan GOOD question. The book Dynamic Learning is quite good. Dilts & Epstein.
Roy_Kirk Yes. I know a couple school teachers and I would love to point them in the direction of NLP to help them.
Jonathan And there's a lot of alternative education stuff out there on body kinesthetics.... ideal learning strategies, while most of the NLPers studying that seem to be exploring these alternative ideas put forth by others.
Occum I'm into Win Wengers stuff, he's not NLP but some of the parallels between his methods and some NLP stuff out there on Education is spooky.
anakin Win stuff is great.
Jonathan There is NOT a lot of information, for example, on using Nested Loops in a traditional educational environment. There's a niche subject market, in case anyone wants to write about it.... Yes, Occum , I'd agree.
Occum Or even just NLP strategies in general.
Jonathan Alright. Let's focus a little here! OK..... As in... For Specifically TAPES. There are tapes for introducing (for everyone)... NLP.... And there are advanced tapes. And there are intermediate tapes. Let's start with some INTRODUCTION type material on cassette!
Occum Now I wanna know about this. 8-)
Jonathan I found Instant Rapport (Michael Brooks) on cassette to be a good FIRST introduction to using some NLP tools. The book provides a lot more, but that one's a good intro. So what tapes did you first listen to you that gave you a real feel for what you were learning? (never mind the VAKOG presups there ;) No one can remember the first introductory tapes they listened to? What about NLP Comp's "Success Mastery with NLP"
Roy_Kirk I'm still saving up to buy my 1st tape set.
Occum Well I've never listened to any yet.
Wild1 Mine where the N-sonics
Jonathan There's a 6-tape set.... from Robert MacDonald and Charles Faulkner....
Wild1 Turned me inside out
Jonathan which is really quite good... and they took 2 of those tape sides and made a single tape that you can get in any Borders or Barnes & Noble.
Occum Though I thought about getting the DHE tapes, but then their not really intorductory.
anakin I bought a NLP course from Nightingale Covent and did't really like it.
Jonathan I know because I bought the single tape from -- yes -- Nightingale Conant --
anakin I didn't understand it.
Wild1 DHE is ONLY for the advanced student. They would go over a beginners head
Jonathan and then found out there were other tapes as part of the same series
Occum No I'm aware of that.
Jonathan I'd agree, Wild1. OK. So lets move into intermediate level tapes or tape-series. And this can include Practitioner tapes.
Roy_Kirk wait, Jon, I have a question
Jonathan Yes Roy?
Occum Problem is I'm not sure what level I'm on right now.
Roy_Kirk Can you reccommend a good way for us to gague ourselves? YES Occum!
Wild1 Good question
anakin I already gave a strong rec for NLP Home Sudy Course.
Roy_Kirk Should I buy the beginner or intermediate stuff? How can we tell?
Occum Yes. Or is it guess work?
Jonathan I think 1 or 2 beginner products at the $10-$20 range is a good way to tell if its REALLY easy material, or if you need the material at that level at first. And its not a heavy investment. Just my $0.02.
Occum Ok like my Robbins books?
Jonathan Sure. Only, and I'll preface this by saying that while Robbins' books are good primers... I think they're a little verbose.
Occum Oh yes I know what you mean.
Jonathan I think the material can be presented in much more depth much more quickly.
anakin What about Robbins tape course, I can;t remember what the name of it is though.
Jonathan Personally, I think those tapes are GREAT for motivation. Tony is "Mr. Motivation." ;)
Wild1 Robbins has a pretty limited model of NLP
Jonathan If you want real concrete skills and behavioral understanding, go elsewhere.
Occum Ok so where should I go from there Jon?
Jonathan Occum -- you can go from there to Intermediate level material. Which can - in my opinion - include Practitioner courses or tapes. Get John's tapes!
Occum So where should a person go to get to the next level Jon, intermediate?
Sandworm Occum... One book I read that really made NLP useful and applicable for me...more than any other single book...was "Phoenix: The Therapeutic Patterns of Milton Erickson" by David Gordon -- That book is NOT about hypnosis or NLP, as such..
Jonathan That's a GREAT book.
Occum Is it broad at all? Or narrow?
anakin Better than Transformations or Patterns 1 and 2?
Sandworm But because it looks at how Erickson thought about changing people..and MOST importantly, what his "algorithms" were for personal change work... it SKYROCKETED my ability understand what all the various NLP tools were AIMED at and how to use them in concert in a structured way! Anakin:Broader..more focused on algorithms rather than specific pieces of language.
Jonathan Integration in a book, as it were....
Sandworm Yes, Jonathan just nailed it -- exactly correct!
anakin OK, thanks:)
Wild1 Transformations... Using your Brain For a Change ...Great Books
Jonathan Tranceformations is a GREAT book. And yes, Using Your Brain for a Change is the first seminar book on the use of SubModalities.
Occum Yeah I had thought about jumping to B&G books.
Jonathan I think of beginner level stuff... as products that give you some knowledge of a few concrete skills... and anything mid-level as being something that integrates and builds on basic skills.
Wild1 Heart of The mind is a great book of specific techniques
msjill Are there any simple books out there that explain NLP in common terms
Jonathan Yes Jill -- start with " introducing NLP " by Joseph O'Connor. Or, "Principles of NLP" by O'Connor et al -- (publisher Thorsons). Joseph & I email occasionally, plus we share weblinks to each other. He makes some complex NLP ideas quite simple. He's worth reading.
msjill Thanks, Jon
Jonathan Sure. And Jill, we mentioned Instant Rapport as well, before. thats another good place to start. Another set of books that tends to be downplayed -- that I'd put in the intermediate range... are some of the books by people or about people that Bandler & Grinder modeled when they did Structure of Magic... Examples: Satir: the Patterns of her Magic, Uncommon Therapy - Jay Haley (about Milton Erickson), and some others. Some of this material is veryyyy boring... some absolutely gripping. Uncommon therapy is an amazing book (to me). Persuasion Engineering is... not what I'd call introductory NLP material... but it's an excellent example of the kinds of language patterns that can be used to influence and motivate. Hypnotic Realities I think was Milton Erickson, wasn't it? Wisdom of Erickson was written by Havens, I believe. Let's talk videos! The best Bandler videos available today are the series of tapes recorded in the UK in 1997... called... STATE OF THE ART. They run $100 for the pair, or $60 per tape. And... An Evening With Dr. Bandler.
Sandworm For my money...the Hypnosis in Munich audiotapes are Richard in top form! He sizzles! Highly recommended.
Jonathan Definitely amongst the best.
Occum I havent bought any of it yet, but what I've seen on the net is impressive.
Jonathan I wanna do something politically incorrect and praise something that comes out of the NLP comprehensive camp. I find that which comes from trainer Charles Faulkner to be very accessible material... and ethically balanced. He doesn't get lost in language patterns. He seems to have a clear grasp of the use of Metaphor and even has some good tapes out on metaphor. So look out for his name if you want to. Dat makes sense?
Roy_Kirk I'm nodding.
Jonathan Now... Here's the amazing part -- the advanced part... There are some very advanced NLP products out there. Some products that are... outside the easy reach of the beginning NLP'er. And there are other advanced products out there.
Occum Like DHE™ tapes.
Jonathan Dilts has recorded some tapes on the SYNTAX of Anchoring, etc. By syntax I mean, how anchors are or are not effective -- what makes them diminish over time... etc. Works that take one area of intense study and go beyond mastery with those topics. Eventually. Eventually... after you've reached a certain level of mastery with NLP Techniques and skills and attitudes.... Eventually... you start to hear/read things that are NOT relevant to NLP... and you start fitting them into an NLP context. When you have the tools to begin to do that... then the lines between NLP in life and other-than-NLP begin to blur.
tranzpupy I'm doing that *now* -- and I ain't got to mastery yet...
Jonathan You take your modeling skills, and in partially vague fashion... you start to do more of the process of paying closer attention to what works... and discarding what doesn't. You start to become more aware of how everything you do/explore adjusts your state. Eventually... everything you explore becomes advanced NLP material. Does that make any sense?
sunev It does to me
CarlosSWhat do you think of the Syntax of Behavior tapes by Robert Dilts
Jonathan I haven't heard them Carlos! haven't heard/read it all yet! I probably never will, because excellent people in this field... are constantly coming out with new material.
sunev So what have you heard *about* them?
Jonathan I've heard they're quite good. That they explore things in a way that hasn't been done before, i.e., the material is... innovatively unraveled.
sunev OK I thought meta-modeling was kind of tough at first. Coz I got hung up on terms and stuff.
Jonathan There are two series out if I'm not mistaken. Syntax of Behavior series 1 & 2. And the 1st series has... (best recollection) 4 volumes. And the 2nd series has... 2 I think. Do you know what "Syntax" means as a word?
sunev What exactly does Dilts mean by syntax of behavior? yes, it has to do with how you structure language?
Jonathan yes. So they're talking about the Structure, or the Grammar, of behavior. Now... the title... "Syntax of Behavior"... is just a title. It's chunked up. ;) The volumes themselves are more detailed, like... States & Strategies (hope I recall this right), Anchoring -- the Oldest NLP Mystery, Belief Systems, Batesonian Model for Investigation (thats' Series I). Series 2 is "Tools for Mind Mastery" & "Generative Personality".
sunev Are you saying anchoring is the oldest NLP mystery, or am i missing out on something?
Jonathan And again, I haven't heard them. I'm not saying anything with respect to these tapes, other than ... that I have secondary information in support of the material. Alright.
sunev I love a good mystery!
Jonathan So that's basically all I have to offer on those tapes (which ain't much). You can get ALL of those tapes directly through Metamorphous Press (or through me, since I'm a reseller thru them). Now... I promised a couple of attendees here that I would talk about choosing a trainer. Is that something that would interest the group? Or do you want to talk more about products?
tranzpupy Easy, just pick Jonathan
sunev Yeah!
Jonathan LOL
Roy_Kirk, B_Bishop, Admiral16yes
Roy_Kirk OK Jon...what is a good way to research a trainer and make sure that he is what you are looking for and will be a value for the money?
Jonathan I'd start with these steps: Hit the web. explore their website if they have one, see what they write about, what people are saying about them. Find out if there are good reports. Find out if there are any complaints floating around. Get a sense of their skill level and their experience and their ethics, if you can. Go to other websites like the NLP Information Center, Stever Robbins' NLP & DHE™ General Information Server [2/2003 comment added: now run by Eric Rudnick] and read their reviews there. Choose a couple of trainers that you like and begin to compare details about their trainings. Cost, location, secondary costs. Time involved. etc.
Roy_Kirk I'm nodding.
Jonathan so.... once you've done some comparison shopping, you should have a good balanced choice to be confident about. But even then.... sometimes, its just not enough to convince you that spending literally several thousand dollars (overall, everything included), is worth it. So... thats why some trainers (myself included) do shorter term trainings.
Roy_Kirk yes, I see
Jonathan Kind of like an easy way to meet your trainer and get a sense of what they can do for you, & with you. My Practitioner trainings are small -- 10 people max at this time.
tranzpupy Jonathan is great... And he keeps getting better... and better
Jonathan What other trainer-choice questions do you have that I might answer? (I'm trying to answer in as unbiased terms that I can, i.e, not just relative to me).
Roy_Kirk That was good Jon, thanks! You did a good job of it, too.
Jonathan Ah, thanks!
anakin Jon, are you teaching master prac?
Jonathan Yes, I do train Master Practitioners.
tranzpupy and I will be there... I hope...
MichaelGWhat kind of things would make a good short training to take?
Jonathan I train triplets of 1-day rapid skills-builders trainings over a weekend. Great for people both new to NLP and Master Pracs alike. I kind of fell upon the format by lucky accident. I've done these 1-day events where people get a lot regardless of their background.
sunev How did you arrive at the format?
Jonathan I did it by learning the hard way how to build an NLP seminar business. As someone who -- last Summer, was quite new to this -- I had to find a way to get market exposure and student recommendations fast. The ONLY way to do that was to start doing a lot of short-term 1-day or evening events. More people will come to those. And I was doing a LOT of 1-day events. I got pretty good at em. Eventually I started adding in handouts. So... day 2 of those 3 day events has language pattern handouts.
tranzpupy If you take his prac training, forget dinner.. He makes you give him presents!
Jonathan LOL tranz ;)
anakin haha
Jonathan Well, I think everyone should have presence. Now. I use the nature of the 1-day events (short term, little time) to be very overt with leading people through rapid exercises. But as I do... it becomes clear to me anyway who's more experienced and who isn't. And using nonverbal communication methods, as I scan the room during the exercises, I'll make eye contact and suggest the NEXT thing that the person can add into what they're doing. So experienced people can go beyond the normal framework of the exercises... and newbies get to get a sense of how it all works. Everyone benefits.... and I keep everyone on their toes. The other thing is... in wanting to gain a reputation as a trainer quickly, I decided, SCREW giving little pieces one at a time, I started throwing ALL KINDS of kewl stuff at my students... I figured each of them would get some of it... and that "some" is always different from one person to the next. So I use multi-channel communication.
tranzpupy he does, too
Jonathan With me so far?
anakin Total immersion, sink or swim works well.
tranzpupy I asked him when we were going to learn something -- this was about the third week. He said we'd already done it... and we had...
Jonathan I disallow sinking at my trainings ;) If installation doesn't work, I'll walk you through it ;)
sunev I like going for walks!
Jonathan Tranzpupy -- 3rd week? in a 13-day training?
tranzpupy Yeah, you gave us eight weeks worth in 13 days... you are *really* good...
sunev Interesting bit of time distortion
Jonathan My style is a combination of 3 things. (1) Installation. Thank you, Richard. (2) Conscious description. I *want* you to have a handle on the material. And lastly, (3) EXPERIENTIAL learning.
anakin What is the best way to prepare for a training?
Jonathan Differs from trainer to trainer. Follow your trainer's suggestions for their training. I customize my reading lists for each person who signs up for my events. Based on what they've already read and based on what they each want to gain.
anakin Thanks Jonathon, I gotta go.
sunev You never did tell about the dual voice thing
Jonathan The dual-tone voice is a voice trick I modeled from a combination of things.
(1) Mind Machines Dual-Binaural Beats
(2) Double-Inductions as a way to distract and induce trance
If you can learn to produce two distinctly separate tones in your voice, and begin to modulate each one separately... it has the same results as (1) and (2) above. It induces a light trance, plus it sounds MAGNETIC. The dual-tone voice thing is side 4 of a 2-cassette series I've been working on for a while. And am looking forward to finishing. the set is called "Find Your Irresistable Voice." It helps that I've had some formal voice training -- I used to be in a choir in NYC -- sang in Lincoln Center a few times and all around the city.
sunev I used to date a guy who could make a cricket sounds and a flying saucer noise at the same time. does that count?
Jonathan Yes, venus, that counts. Also if you can stand on one leg, bark like a dog and do cross-crawling exercises (concurrently....) you get double-points.
sunev Concurrently? that's too hard ;-(
Jonathan I actually give you 47 exercises to do -- to be more aware of HOW your mouth, throat and chest produce sounds.
sunev Cool
Jonathan They sound funny ;) So your friends will think your nuts. I think any NLP tape worth its salt should make your friends think your nuts. LOL
sunev Agreed! LOL
tranzpupy too late...
Jonathan Thanks for coming!


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