NLP & Advertising, Advertising with NLP. Hypnotic Advertising

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NLP & Advertising
IRC Chat Log, May 24, 1998


NLP & Advertising
Jonathan Well thanks for coming, folks, glad you could join in! Tonight I wanted to cover an area that tends to be glossed over a lot in the newsgroups, etc.. and that has to do with how influential Advertising affects us all. There's been quite a few books out recently that discuss the impact persuasive advertisements have on people, so that's nothing new... Estimates say that Americans see an average of over 3000 ads per day, in one form or another... More if they watch television frequently! These numbers also include the visual sighting of a particular brand's product, like, a car in a television show, etc. And a number of people suggest that these ads are so prevalent, so pervading... that we cannot not be affected by them! Now, its true advertisers are driven by market research into human behavioral responses to these ads... And its also true that we study Human Behavior as NLPers... And that we're especially interested in the process by which people can get into certain states which are useful for something, and then "installing" triggers for those states to be used later on (anchors). And I'm finding that advertisers (in the ads I've been watching lately) are getting increasingly sophisticated with how they're reaching the public. And how they INSTALL behavior in you to buy their products later on! Have any of you noticed this?
jillcee no
Jonathan I think, Jill that this will become obvious in a moment.
Occum Yes. Like the cigarette companies.
MichaelR Yes, particularly in political ads... :)
Occum Giving away free gear for buying their product.
Jonathan Have you noticed in your own behavior -- how... lets say you're in a store... and there are several major name products that you recognize, and somehow or other you just feel more attracted to one than the other? What I'm describing is different than for example buying Coke vs Pepsi! (they should give me $10 apiece for that mention) ;)
jillcee Yes it is. I like Blue Bunny ice cream over the other brands
Jonathan Sometimes, ads you've seen have caused you to attach emotional responses to their products.. or to the process of buying their products... or even to the moment you find yourself later on... in a situation when you're faced with their products... and you just feel that urge to buy. OK! Example time.
MichaelR Example perhaps: Microsoft...where do you want to go tomorrow?
Jonathan YES! Good example! OK. I was driving along, recently, in MY neighborhood.
Occum Or the beer people?
Jonathan And my neighborhood is filled with internet-savvy IT Professionals.
follie And some ads are so bad or so obnoxious that I won't buy the product even if it's the only one available
Jonathan They make up half the people in my home subdivision ;) True follie, true. So I'm driving along, and there's this billboard. And it shows a picture of "Stouffer's French Bread Pizza." And it says, "Because there's no Snackbar on the Internet."
Occum Music, beautifal people having a good time, then WHAMMO!! they flash the product name.
Jonathan Yes, Occum!
jillcee LOL... I want pizza
Jonathan OK -- so the example I described is an AWESOME example of using NLP Skills in influential Advertising.
Occum In a very targeted way no less.
Jonathan Why? Because its targeted to what the people who see the ad experience frequently...
MichaelR Nike has done that masterfully...portraying champions...and those feelings that we all want to feel...
Jonathan and even more interesting...
Occum When Nike has ads for Jordans gear during a Bulls playoff game.
Jonathan they're FUTURE-PACING me being on the internet, letting time just slip away... and eventually obviously we'll get hungry. And some of us are going to be thinking about Stouffer's. But not me. Not when I know what they're doing and can stop that process from happening, by collapsing the anchor.
jillcee That's a very good point, Jonathan
Occum Obey your thirst! Drink Sprite.
Jonathan Not unless they pay me $200 for the above mention. ;)
Occum LOL.
Jonathan Sure, Occum!
MichaelR Just do it.
Jonathan Michael, Nike has the best people in influential advertising around, they've always known the value of eliciting emotional responses like champion spirit.
MichaelR They have some phenomenal ads that really get the juices pumping...
Jonathan Ahhh as they say, Image is everything isn't it?
Occum That's why they are so big.
MichaelR Especially their "documentary of a champion" type format..
Jonathan Now what I think is really powerful, is when they start using Nested Loops in their ads.
Occum A story within a story.
Jonathan What do I mean by this == does anyone know what I mean by nested loops? Yes Occum, just keep in mind that they don't usually have time to put stories within stories in commercial advertising!
follie No - what are they?
Occum OK, then how.
Jonathan Instead of thinking about stories... think about frames of reference. The idea is... you open 1 frame of reference. And you set the stage. Then you show the audience a new frame and put something in it. Then you close the inner frame, finish & close the outer frame... and you've just installed a sequential reference or process that their minds can go through.
Occum Ok.
Jonathan So let's use an example. I was in Los Angeles last month!
Occum It keeps the mind busy and gives their message time to penetrate.
Jonathan And I'm driving down the road (Billboards are great, aren't they?) And I see a Billboard with the GodZilla-style graphic titles. But no real detail.
follie You should come to a state where billboards are illegal! :)
Jonathan And the ad says, "His Big Toe is this big" or something like that.
follie (sorry to get off the subject)
Jonathan Then 1/2 mile later another one says... "His Tail goes from here..."
Occum Oh yes on the side of buses it said "His foot is bigger than this bus."
Jonathan And then 1/2 mile later another one says... "To Here..."
Occum "His eye is bigger than this sign"
Jonathan And somehow it took until the 4th passing of those signs to realize that there was a sign in the middle, smaller than the others, that said... "See Gozilla" followed by the date of release.
Occum Ohhh, wow.
Jonathan The suggestion was in the middle of a thought process that was left open. It was incomplete.... we were looking for the completion of the thought process... while they slipped in a different suggestion.
Occum I'd like to meet the genius who did that ad campaign.
MichaelR And that makes it more difficult for us to consciously filter, letting it slip in the unconscious?
Jonathan Next time we see ANY ad for that movie that shows recognizeable graphics... inside, we're hearing "see godzilla" in our own internal voice. Absolutely, Michael. When we're not aware of it... it goes in more smoothly. Assuming we see it at all. Auditory subliminals have been proven to be almost useless, at least when compared to a post-hypnotic suggestion. The latter is MUCh more effective. And MOST of the Milton Model in NLP is designed to induce distraction or confusion, such that any suggestions that are made, are less filtered on the way in.
Occum So we're not talking so much about the words but the structure.
Jonathan Absolutely!
Occum I need to start thinking more globally.
Jonathan When they start nesting loops, and thus using NLP in Advertising... I had to laugh... someone VERY skilled in human psychology and hypnosis is working for these people. And the stuff works!
MichaelR why limit yourself, what about universally? ;)
Occum Well, I meant something a little differant than that.
Jonathan So again, when I say loops, in this case I'm talking about frames of reference. The mind learns best not by static images, but by sequential shifts.
Occum I guess fast comparison of differences.
Jonathan So if you start with something that is representative of a "universal" experience... and then shift into something else... that something else becomes a likely transition for your audience to be able to make later on when the audience member finds themselves in a frame or situation which is metaphorically similar, or literally similar, to the outer frame in the advertisement. Our responses have been programmed for YEARS by advertisers all around us. Now, we DO have freedom of choice... but the more sophisticated it gets... the more sophisticated WE have to be to filter it out and BE AWARE of these processes being used around us all the time! These are the kinds of patterns I pay attention to... because I want to have my freedom of choice BACK -- I want it back from the advertisers, and and back from political strategists, etc. ...
Occum Y'know Kenrick Cleveland said that the only way to resist language patterns is to either have a preset out come against what is being thrown at you or to really be aware of them.
Jonathan Yes, Kenrick is right about that. The FORMER, is where the advertisers have very little capability to change your mind (just thru ads, anyway). So to focus their energy on avoiding the LATTER defense mechanism... they make their techniques increasingly sophisticated. But I'll tell you, some of the BEST ads I've seen lately... are simply ones that MAKE YOU LAUGH!
Occum It's like showing a magic trick to primitive peoples... Eventually they get the trick...
Jonathan Humor is the best educator around because it does the same thing that hypnosis does.
Occum So to impress you have to come up with increasingly sofisticated tricks.
Jonathan It breaks down all the defenses... and gets your physiology into a more open, flexible state that happens to be in motion! Think about the last time you laughed your butt off! Your body ROCKED with the fun of it all!
follie And if you laugh, you automatically associate a good feeling with the product
Jonathan Anything suggested to you at THAT time was being INSTALLED in your body... in your mind... because you were ENJOYING it! Yes, follie ... think about this one: Little Caeser's Pizza!
Occum Yeah, I still remeber stuff from commercials in the '80s. Right there you go!!
MichaelR Pizza Pizza :)
Jonathan One of the funniest Ad Campaigns around -- & it skyrocketed their pizza! P! P!
Occum Making people laugh makes takes them off guard.
Jonathan "My Long Lost Brother!" "I found My Wallet!" "I Will Marry You!" "I've lost 10 pounds!" Pizza Pizza. "I don't need my glasses anymore!"
follie And similarly, as I said earlier, if the ad is dumb, or insulting, then I tend to feel that the product is too
Jonathan Agreed, follie. But Pizza doesn't need to be serious. ;) Now the example I gave is where they put all the Pizza Pizza stuff right in the middle of the funny lines... of this weirdo kid with all the good luck in the world.... So anytime you're with friends and you start laughing... guess what pizza comes to mind
Occum Or anytime you think of Cosby you think of jello.
Jonathan Does this process of anchoring responses and embedding ideas make sense?
Occum Yep.
Jonathan They're using this stuff all the time around you. So, I'd like 2 things to come out of this chat.
(1) For people that read it to be more aware of patterns of communication that last more than several seconds... and the trick is... to think faster and let information feel like its coming at you more slowly..... ;)
(2) For advertisers to recognize that while I'm teaching the general public everything they're doing -- I know how to do the more sophisticated stuff, so, call me when you want to know why all your current ads aren't working anymore and we can work out a good rate.
Occum, MichaelR, follie LOL!
MichaelR This is not humor, but what about embedded commands like "It's NOT DELIVERY, IT'S DIJOURNO(sp?)"
follie Good point, Michael
Jonathan Ahhhhh! Glad Michael brought that up -- thats the next subject! Now! Next point. Embedded commands like, "Its NOT DELIVERY, it's DIJOURNO!" Well thats more than just an embedded command, right?
Occum Right.
Jonathan Its a play on PHONOLOGICAL AMBIGUITIES. It utilizes a tricky sounding bit of wordplay.
Occum And a sort of propulsion system.
MichaelR Ahhh...right... :)
Jonathan But they DEFINITELY use command tone down on a lot of their ads (those advertisers that know how to do that, anyway).
Occum Could it also be considered a referential ambiguity?
Jonathan Whenever someone uses a shifting tone downward... it opens up the command response center in the brain. Referential ambiguity, thats a new phrase.... ;) Its more like... an EMBEDDED SWISH pattern. ;) Swish is an NLP tool for teaching your unconscious mind... "Not this... THIS! Not this... THIS! Not this... THIS! Not this... THIS! Not this... THIS! " Got it?
MichaelR Right...and they repeat it like 5-6 times quickly in each commercial too.. Oops...beat me to it!
Jonathan So what it does is take the initial thing.... and install an automatic response in a different direction... i.e.,. the direction they WANT you to choose. I love it! And it works, with MANY people.
MichaelR I have a freezer full of DiJourno to testify to it... :)
Jonathan (Editor's comment: this is a joke, in case anyone far too serious-minded is reading this:) What we ought to do is find everyone who's in therapy, and build an NLP Advertising campaign for everyone to just feel better. I wonder how well it would work?! What do you think?
Occum Hey thats a good idea.
Jonathan Sure! We could nest loops of pleasant stories, and future-pace no problems and happiness... embed frames of reference to even better stuff, etc...
MichaelR Thinking of running for office, eh?
Jonathan OK. Moving on. Swish patterns are effective... Have you ever seen this in a commercial? They show you a situation where everythings going badly for some guy... and they reach a threshold where everything gets completely out of control...?
jillcee sure
Occum I'm certain I have, but since you asked me... Like insurance commercials.
Jonathan And then... they say something.... and all the video they show you gets REWOUND FAST? Back to square ONE?
jillcee yes, "Do the DEW"
MichaelR Lawyer commercials...
Jonathan And then after they rewind it... the guy looks happy and less disheveled? Ever see them reverse all the nasty stuff in a commercial?
MichaelR Yes...they should have called a lawyer instead... :)
Jonathan Think about it
Grendal Smile
Jonathan Go back thru your memories... think about whether or not you've seen commercials where they rewound all the bad stuff? OK, well, maybe you have... maybe you haven't. But when they do that... they're doing what NLP calls "change-history." And... they're also doing something similar to the process undergone within what NLP calls the "NLP Fast Phobia Cure." Its phenomenally sophisticated process, when you consider exactly what they're doing, and what effects these things are designed to have on you. Plus if they show you the nasty stuff getting worse and worse and worse.... they install a threshold pattern in YOU where the next time you begin to see the pattern happening... LONG BEFORE you let that threshold get reached, you'll rewind the same process yourself... and move toward their product which'll give you that calm peace of mind. I'd like to give those advertises a piece of my mind...! So I should say that its NOT true that all of these advertisers know NLP and are intentionally using NLP in Advertising. Or that all of them consulted NLP Master Practitioners or Trainers, or intentionally build NLP Advertising campaigns, though some of them undoubtedly had.
jillcee If I was a salesperson, could NLP be used face to face to improve my sales by using suggestive techniques?
Jonathan But these people have been in the business of Human Persuasion for their entire careers. Obviously there's going to be some overlap between NLP and Advertising.
jillcee Isn't NLP all about upselling and suggestive selling?
Jonathan No question Jill -- NLP is unbelievably powerful for use in in-person suggestive selling. In fact, I find it to be most effective one-on-one. Because NLP teaches you to synchronize your experience with that of the other person. And to know how to lead them anywhere.
jillcee But you have to create a positive influence on the person for it to work effectively right?
Jonathan Well, that's my preference.
jillcee Hehheh! I've found that when dealing with men, it helps in my persuasion to touch them.
MichaelR Long ago, I sold home alarm systems, and we had an entire script which, looking back, led the prospect through losing their family...with their only alternative being to buy our alarm system and be safe...
Jonathan I don't go in the other direction. But no, that's not required. There are people who've learned NLP for use in persuading others to buy things that aren't in their best interests. But these quick-sell-artists will not get long-term business and long-term sales.. because their customers may easily develop "buyer's remorse." So those individuals need to look over their shoulder when they're doing that. Because it isn't a successful long-term strategy. Yes, Michael -- but that's not entirely the same thing as creating a negative influence on the person. In the case of the alarm system... did it actually provide a real sense of security? If so, then the product provided good value... and the script you describe is simply amplifying the AWAY-FROM motivational response of the customer. And then providing the towards.
MichaelR It did...and the product was good..the people selling it on the other hand...
Jonathan Well, ok, questionable strategy, but did it really create a negative influence on the person (except when the people didn't buy!!!!) ?
MichaelR No.
Jonathan Let me backtrack here a sec -- I think I missed a message or two... Ahhhh ;) I missed a good one! "jillcee said: I've found that when dealing with men, it helps in my persuasion to touch them" ;) Yep
jillcee (giggles) it does
Jonathan I've found that when dealing with women, it helps in my persuasion to touch them too (on the arm)! And... also... to provide more than 3 seconds eye contact! But I'm getting off-topic. Since I've covered all the base material I want to cover.... I'd like to ask any of you if you can remember particular persuasive advertisements or campaigns... which you don't understand why they were so successful with you or with others... and perhaps we can find an NLP basis for their success! (other than than those ads already mentioned!)
jillcee I've seen that its good to present your items with different ethnics using them
MichaelR Hmmm... I understand why they were effective, but the Clinton pre-and-post-Presidential campaigns have been masterful... and seemingly very NLP-based...
Jonathan Yes, jillcee -- that's basically pacing a variety of audiences. Certainly, Michael -- well we know that Bill Clinton and Al Gore are trained in NLP! ...mostly from Tony Robbins -- but also from having read books
jillcee This NLP seems very logical.. its like knowing your crowd, pacing your presentation and presenting your motives
Jonathan Its way beyond logical... its SURGICAL
MichaelR Or, in some cases, presenting the crowds motives as your own.
Jonathan lol! Yes, Michael!
Longshot5 I think Microsoft's early Windows 95 ads, anchoring to "Start me Up" were interesting. Their slogan "Where do you want to go today" certainly is confusing.
Jonathan Is it confusing? Or are they basically attaching themselves to whatever answer YOU provide to that question?
MichaelR Microsoft's campaigns have been one of my favorites to watch for a long time...
Longshot5 That's their intent i assume, in spite of its [lack] of technical merit
Jonathan Yes. Brilliant campaigns, to be sure.
jillcee Yes and how about that Intel blue guy...
MichaelR Especially seeing how their product has grown in light of it's technical merits... Proof that it's not the best product, it's the best (NLP) marketing... :)
Jonathan Lighting up the Empire State Building to coincide with their Windows95 release September 5?
MichaelR That's what I mean, LS5... :)
Jonathan Yes, image is EVERYTHING. But Microsoft got a LOT of bad press around Windows 3.1. Windows 95 and NT 4.0 were what saved MS.
Longshot5 The 'Intel Inside' is extremely effective also.
jillcee so is also providing a visual association with a product
MichaelR Yeah, but it was the marketing...not the product! That's what made it so interesting to me...
Jonathan They were sufficiently stable to counteract the growing discontent with MS's product stability. Sure, Jill. NLP is about EVERYTHING, Jill... ;) NLP is about modeling what works, in EVERY field.
jillcee Hmmm
Longshot5 Not just visual, but auditory also.
jillcee Okay, I've got a good one
Longshot5 The 4 notes associated with 'intel inside'
Jonathan It encompasses anything where you want to learn skills to optimize what you do in any area of expertise.
MichaelR True, but if you consider all the bad press pre-releases of the products got...they did a great job of steering you away from that!
Jonathan The introductory essay on NLP (recently added to my website) goes a little ways towards describing why.
jillcee I've noticed that when i browse on the internet that ppl are associating a lot of bad porn stuff with topics that aren't even associated with it
Longshot5 The latest Apple ads are brilliant, IMHO.
Jonathan Yes, Jill... because people are frequently attempting to categorize people and things... the brain naturally want to categorize things because without that, it has difficulty understanding or responding. Its also something that MOST of the time, is done ineffectively.
Longshot5 'Think different', associating Apple with Einstein, Gandhi, Jim Henson, and even Jerry Seinfeld.
Jonathan NLP explains how/why people inappropriately categorize/generalize things. But NLP-trained Advertisers KNOW this.... so they'll make use of the natural categorization process.
MichaelR Guilt by association...
jillcee No, guilt by categorization
Jonathan Some people who know influence only want to hurt people. But others... like me... want to help people to understand these processes... and its these sorts of people you want to be learning from. Does that makes sense?
MichaelR Yes.
Jonathan ;) In how many ways... did that make sense? ;)
Longshot5 Now, when I think of Seinfeld, the last episode in particular, I instantly think of the Apple advertisement.
jillcee No
Jonathan I was using your natural categorization process to "categorize myself." And the language ambiguity....
jillcee how do we know your not using NLP; to influence our thought pattern to trust you
Jonathan The language pattern: "others... like me..." As to how do you know I'm not using NLP to influence our thought patterns? You don't.
Longshot5 They are in black & white also, can you explain that Jon?
Jonathan You have to trust yourself, Jill, firstly. Then, you have to look around, talk to people. Find out what other people are saying, calibrate your own internal experience that tells you "this guy is telling it like it is!" or "that guy is trying to get me wrapped around his little finger -- and not for my own benefit, but for his, at my expense."
jillcee Jonathan, you speak politely, you instill that we trust you, you prompt us to ask questions so that it instills trust to your belief. It's all that NLP! You even suggest that we bring up past memories such as persuasive advertisements!
Jonathan Yes, all that is true.
jillcee LOL. Jillcee High-Five's Jonathan !
Jonathan So whats the question behind those observations? I *want* to stand up to the challenge and the scrutiny. I *want* people to understand how this works! And YES I am using it with you -- here -- and now!
jillcee Is NLP just for NLP marketing?
Jonathan What about for relationships? What about for understanding friends?
jillcee As a collaboration for trust and response
Jonathan Sure those are all nice business things... but what about for generating rapport in relationships and becoming a more dynamic person?
jillcee Yes but a relationship is also a business merger.
Jonathan ROTFLOL! What a perspective! I love it. We have an investor in our midst.
jillcee I'm not an investor, I just don't date! :)
Jonathan OK, well, we're getting off track again! I'd like to say Thank You to everyone who's participated... and thought long and easy about a lot of the things we've covered tonight... THANKS for coming and joining in! This was a LOT of fun -- very productive... and I learned a lot from all of you too!
jillcee You're doing it again! You say long and easy, making us re-read or think it as "long and hard" and associate it again to your words!
follie Can we do one of these on Sales?
Jonathan Jill, that is ONE way to interpret it! follie -- have you checked out my website yet?
follie Briefly, yes
Jonathan Have you read Persuasion Engineering?
Occum Everyone should check Jon's site.
follie No - but I've started Michael Brooks Instant Rapport
Jonathan Ahh -- GOOD book. Once you're done with that, get Persuasion Engineering. I think its the most advanced material on NLP & Sales anywhere.
follie Will do, thanks
Jonathan The book may be a little advanced, but its awesome!
follie Will it make sense to a new student?
Jonathan Its mostly stories, so yes! It's designed to install patterns of persuasion and understanding in you. Its not outline form... so if you like funny stories... get it! Thanks for coming! Goodnight!


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