Christopher Tomasulo (Doktor Sulo) on Persuasion - Chat Transcript

IRC Chat Pages [ Back to Chat Index Page ]

Featuring Chris Tomasulo
Turning Problems Into Opportunities

IRC Chat Log, August 30, 2001

This chat ©2001 Chris Tomasulo & Jonathan Altfeld. All rights reserved & shared by both Jonathan & Chris. Publication in any other form requires written authorization from both parties.

Warming Up!
Jonathan Welcome to you all, on behalf of Chris & Myself... for the first NLP chat to be hosted here in over 2 years! Everyone, please welcome, Chris Tomasulo! Welcome Chris!
DrSulo Thank you, Jonathan.
Jonathan Thanks for taking this evening to come in & chat with everyone. You've got a lot of fans here.
DrSulo Tonight I'd like to briefly talk about how you can effectively climb a corporate ladder by positioning yourself properly and using persuasion to find the key people that will catapult your career. In three short years I went from a part-time worker, to becoming a key player with freedom & power, just by using these techniques. Please let me know how many of you are familiar with "3rd party Perceptual Installation" by a show of "Y" or "N."
Swrd, KevM, Excelence, Mr_0000uk, Soccergrl, Ubik, Muggle, Persuasio No
Egomaniac, MarcMiyo, JonathanA, Stefan73, Sasha1 Yes

3rd Party Perceptual Installation!
DrSulo Here's my thory in a nutshell: A 3rd party who has exceptional rapport, crediblity or both with a 2nd party you have little, no, or brief contact with will exert FULL perceptual control of that person's impression of you and this perception will filter your actions when you meet them to such an extent that their perceptions may even conflict with and alter how they would normally define and classify your behaviors. Please read this once or twice and if anyone has any questions on it please ask them NOW.
Ubik what I understood: you try to convince mr X but you only got access to his friend mr Y and so you work on mr Y to get to mr X
DrSulo Well, you may have access to Mr. X but it's still better to use Y.
Insider99 I take it you never tell Mr. Y about 3PPI?
DrSulo I train Mr. Y on 3PPI. However, I don't tell Mr. X!
Sasha1 So how do you tell the 3rd party to talk about you to 2nd party, what if they never mention you?
DrSulo Ok, I wanted to give you a grounding in the basic theory. First let me give you a simple example for those of you who are not completely clear
JonathanA Actually I have a great example. Dr.Sulo persuaded ME... to persuade YOU ALL... that he was worth listening to tonight. :)
Muggle Hah!
DrSulo I have a negative example and I think it will illustrate to all of you how this kind of thing should not be left to chance. Unfortunately, the majority of examples you find in the real world are not all that constructive. Until I set you all loose on the world! I was helping a friend learn some bartending skills this evening. This person just left a job that they did well at but the perception their boss had of them affected this person's willingness to work at the previous job. She got the previous job from a referral of a friend. This friend (who was well respected by the owner) told this owner that my friend was a "clumsy" person. The person then gave the owner some examples of how my friend was "clumsy." This is what I call an "awareness installation." What do you think the owner was looking for from this point on? EVIDENCE!!!
JonathanA order to validate their concerns. Said differently, what you look for, is usually what you find (or not).
Ubik The owner was expecting your friend to behave like he was told she would.
DrSulo The minute something in the verifiable sensory world that this person could label as "clumsiness" occurred then the 3rd party installation is confirmed and solidified. Brains like simple labels. People like simple labels for other people.
Insider99 Scary, but true.
Ubik Very true.
KevM So basically, you are saying the other friend installed a first impression into the bartender and the bartender used that first impression as a general frame to view the other person in?
DrSulo Yes KevM.
Ubik More than first impression is a Pre-impression.
HsiMay Clumsy, clumsy!
JonathanA If I tell someone else how to think about you, before they've even met you, they're likely to expect you to match the description I give. I can influence their opinion of you before you even meet! Right?
DrSulo In a corporate environment or any job situation their are people who have ultimate power or decision making control. And then there are the people who influnce the decision makers.
Muggle How do we identify and find the people to use to influence the people we want to influence?
Ubik Muggle, that's THE question!
DrSulo Observation. Who in your corporate environment influences the most control over the main decision makers? And if they are inaccessible, then who influences them?
Ubik Sulo, that may not be easy to observe.
DrSulo How so, Ubik?
Ubik I mean it could be difficult to identify such people.
DrSulo I have never found that to be the case.
JonathanA Alright, so we understand 3rd Party Perceptual Installation now. What's next, DrSulo?
DrSulo In a moment I'll show you how to round up people that will gladly participate.
Insider99 Cool.

Rounding Up Your "Team"
KevM So I am thinking this is some offshoot or maybe a direct form of a kind of social proof. Associate yourself with good people who will deliver a good message about you to others.
DrSulo Well social proof is a very high level concept. I can fit a lot of stuff in a big box like "social proof".
JonathanA KevM -- that high-chunk concept actually leaves a lot to chance, too. :)
KevM :)
Muggle The person i first thought of using this idea on when it was presented was the new president of the university i go to. But it is such a large organization i dont know how to go about finding who is good to use to help me exploit him.
DrSulo OK, well, start with the people that are most close to your situation now. You don't have to start directly at the top of an organization. You can start at the head of your particular department.
Muggle Ah, OK.
JonathanA Excellent point. Especially for people who are starting out somewhere lower in a huge organization.
Ubik You mean 'divide the task into small chunks?' I've read about that somewhere :-)
DrSulo Exactly. Picture a staircase. You want to go step by step till you get to the top. Now how do we influence these right-hand people? That's the big question. How do we bring them on to our "team" and have them fighting for us?
JonathanA Make them desire something you can offer!
KevM Provide 'incentives!' Free dinner doesn't sound too bad! ;)
Ubik Well, sex doesn't sound that bad a tool for that. It's widely used in the politic world!
Muggle Ubik is going to sleep his way to the top and be proud of it!
Ubik Well muggle, I'm male, so it is a bit more difficult...
DrSulo The first thing you need to understand that after someone gets a job, money is no longer a determining factor in their needs and wants. In many corporations people have much deeper needs. They need to feel comfortable. They need to know they can trust someone. They need to feel someone's "Got their back." These are the needs you want to play to when approaching your target. Everyone has an automatic "What's in this for me?" sensor. Find out what they need (by observing) and offer it to them behaviorally.
KevM So basically you show that you understand them and you become a good friend to them.
Ubik Kevm, you're saying 'rapport'
KevM So is this kind of like eliciting values and tailoring them to fit that person?
DrSulo KevM: No. The way values are used in NLP is a misnomer. People VALUE something. They don't have VALUES.
KevM Oh, I see. So instead of looking at it as a core set of rules they abide by, you instead look at it as something they want or have a high opinion of.
Insider99 True story apparently: Saddam Hussein goes to minion #1 and says "tell minion #2 that you're plotting against me." If minion #2 doesn't tell Saddam, he dies.
DrSulo Well, we haven't gotten to getting your prospect to do third party yet.
DrSulo I am looking for discomfort, pain and strife, and I guarantee they don't value that. I then become their "haven" or "release" or "solution" to that discomfort, pain or strife. Please bear with me as this is high level strategy and I assume many of you have ways to accomplish what I am speaking about.
KevM Ah.
JonathanA Sulo will be right back, he's taking a short break. Do you have any questions about what you're reading here?
DrSulo Next- exclusivity (I'll be right back)
Insider99 I was asking my GF about who gets on with her boss. Apparently a girl who a) helped him to settle in and b) lets him know what's going on in the office.
KevM Apparantly getting married to a businessman or politician isn't all its cracked up to be for women ;)

Exclusivity is the key in forming relationships with your third parties. Here's a real life example:

In 1993 I was a telemarketer in a vacation sales room. Through the grapevine I heard that a management position was about to open up. I knew the main manager that was going to do the hiring, but not all that well. However, I knew one of his good buddies very well. So, naturally, I went to work on his buddy. I found out that he liked to work part time and not full time and I told him that if I became a manager I would make that happen. I then began my "train a friend" process. This is similar to coaching someone you are selling to, to sell to the true decision maker. ie- If you make a sales call by phone and (for example's sake) the husband is not home, A rookie salesman will go through their entire pitch.

At that point, the salesman will come to find out the husband was there all along and here's how the wife will pitch your 20 minute presentation to the husband: "Honey- it's $1289, do you want to do it?" No value built up. No flair. Just a price with nothing attatched to it. What do you think the husband says?

Muggle "I'd love to waste money, yes!"
DrSulo LOL, I've never heard a "Yes" to that situation, in my entire career.
Djrs Ouch!
DrSulo If you are pitching anyone other than an actual decision maker- then it's an ABSOLUTE NECESSITY to train that person to SELL FOR YOU. You need to give them a well thought out script. Otherwise they will say something foolish. Like nearly everyone I know does -- who tries 3PPI on women for the first time. Their friend says something like "Joe's a cool guy you should go out with him." That's a big OUCH! Much better to tell a "cool" story of an experience you have had with Joe and leave the meta-comments out.
JonathanA In FICTION writing -- authors are taught to SHOW, not TELL.
DrSulo Exactly.
JonathanA If I tell you "mike was happy" -- it's nowhere near as moving as if I say "mike's cheeks flashed pink as he smiled wider... thinking of how nice a day it was out on his new yacht..."
DrSulo So...
1. I find the deeper needs that the 3rd party really wants.
2. I then gain rapport with that person and make them aware of their problems, fears, anxieties and amplify them.
3. I offer them a solution.
4. I then begin my "Godfather" education program. Which I will get to later...
JonathanA So....???? Did you get that management position? Did you follow through & let that buddy work half-time? Inquiring minds wanna know!!!
DrSulo Yes, and that was step 1. Because that was actually a satellite office to the main office.
Djrs Sweet.
JonathanA Great. Way cool stuff. Any questions? I've spent a lot of time acquiring this material and can probably answer most of your questions (I'm getting REALLY excited about the persuasion summit, too).
Sasha1 What if he is unable to offer them a solution?
JonathanA Then he's not being creative or aware enough, at enough different levels. Sulo would find a way, by learning how to satisfy desires & needs of his persuasion subjects. This isn't necessarily about something physical, or something in the office. And you don't want to take on all their workload. Yuck. This is mostly about satisfying something emotional that they're experiencing (or want to).
Djrs He can sell anything to anyone! :P
Insider99 Sulo's example was a very nice solution. His friend _needed_ to get him promoted in order to work part time. It wasn't 'just a favour.'

I think I'm going to jump into another "wierd" example just to show you how creative you can be with solutions. One evening I was out with a group of 6 friends in Ft. Lauderdale. We closed down a bar and wanted to keep going. So we found an after hours club (rave) that opened up at about 4 am. The place was packed with dancers (strippers) who had just finished their shift! :) Well, whenever I go anywhere I look for a way to strategically influence my persuasion opportunities.

The first thing I noticed was a line of about 12 people waiting to get a massage from a massage girl who had set up shop in one of the alcoves. It seems that people who are "rolling" like to get massages. I went to the girl and asked her what she charged.

She said "It's a buck a minute"

I said "what do you normally make in an evening?"

She said "About $125."

I said, "If I gave you $200 could my friends and I have you exclusively for the rest of the evening (until about 8 am)?"

Her eyes lit up! She said, "sure!"

Well, the fact that people still wanted a massage did not wane. The only difference was that the massage girl now directed all massage requests to ME! Who said approaching people is hard? :)

JonathanA Owning a desired commodity has its benefits. :) You get to set the price!
Insider99 Oh, Cool!
Muggle So, how much did you make? =)
Djrs More than $200, I bet!
DrSulo I didn't just get my money back! Now, the point I'm trying to make is that many people that are persuasively orientated are also anally technique driven. Start to look at the bigger picture. Start to look at how you can spend a little bit more time strategically planning and less time actually verbally persuading.
KevM Ah. the mind shortens the mouth. :)
DrSulo LOL, KevM
JonathanA Granted, that one takes a little pocket change, but how many of you were thinking, "Oh, DAMN, I wish I'd thought of that!!!" ? (y/n)
JonathanA, Insider99, Excelence, Stefan73 "Yes"
Insider99 Surely that's a rhetorical question... ;)
JonathanA Aren't they useful? (y/n) LOL
Excelence Haha!
DrSulo $200 divided by 6 guys is a hell of a lot less than if we were buying drinks for the 45 or so women we met.

And EVERY ONE of those 45 women initiated all the contact with you, as well.

How about explaining something further on rounding up your team & mob theory?

DrSulo Sure, this is all about creating a Greenhouse of Persuasion, something I described in one of my newsletters. I call my team of 3rd parties my "Agressive Mastermind Group." Napolean Hill came up with the idea of the mastermind group but it is never really used aggressively. When I first become friends and familiar with my 3rd party, I begin to give them stories on what I call "MOB THEORY" or "GODFATHER THEORY." These are just general stories that a person can relate to how over time the mob was crushed by the FBI's ability to DIVIDE AND CONQUER. After my movie and history review, I then give specific examples in the company I am in of how poor LONE SOULS were crushed because they were ALL ALONE. Of course, I am the person they should team up with. Next, I GO FIRST. I demonstrate wherever possible TRUST and EXCLUSIVITY. Meaning I will regard them as SPECIAL. Then I will introduce them to the concept of 3PPI. From there I train them into how it can be used and then I do 3PPI FOR THEM WHENEVER POSSIBLE and POINT IT OUT TO THEM WHENEVER I DO. Then I go over the benefits to THEM for doing whatever third party mission I want to send them on. Then I give them a script. I send them on the mission. And reward them in any way possible if they succeed. This is an overview, but the sharp minds here will begin to see applications for this in their lives.

Asking Great Questions, Sorting for Opportunities
Insider99 Any tips for actually thinking up stuff like that? I mean, I know that one now but how to recognise such opportunities in future?
JonathanA Insider, great question. If you're asking yourself strategic questions, you're pointing your awareness towards opportunities. Ask yourself those wider awareness questions enough, and you get what you're after.
Insider99 I'd got as far as questions myself ;) but WHICH questions??
DrSulo Insider- Most people ask themselves questions like:
"What will I say when I approach this person?"
"How can I rid myself my fear of rejection?" etc. etc. These are not good questions and restrict the persuasion process. Questions like- "How can I make people come up to me?"
JonathanA "How many unique ways can I persuade this person powerfully?"
DrSulo "Who would I need to influence in order to have the HEAD HONCHO talk to me on his own?"
"What is the most powerful leverage point in this situation?"
JonathanA "In what unique situations will they welcome my persuasion?"
DrSulo These are good questions
Insider99 "What do these people need?"
JonathanA "What unique situation is this person facing that we can both use to cement our future relationship?"
DrSulo "What do they need?"
"What do they fear?"
"What are their anxieties?"
"What are the hidden fears they don't even want to talk about?"
JonathanA "What can I solve for this person that will earn endless trust & reciprocity?"
DrSulo In a corporate environment many people have unspoken problems that they feel are innapropriate to talk about. I make them feel comfortable with revealing them to me. How? I do a mind-read on what I think some of their concerns are and then tell them a story about me having similar concerns, anxieties, problems etc. Which then gives them the comfort level to open up to me with a "ME TOO" story.
JonathanA THIS IS IMPORTANT! The mind-read gives you the POWER & THE BENEFIT OF SURPRISE. i.e., the Advantage of not having asked them in advance about it. So when/if you hit the nail on the head with the story... "Bing!"

"Me-Too" Stories!
DrSulo A "ME TOO" story is any story that you tell that focuses someone's awareness on a similar situation in their lives. You can bring someone's awareness to their personal life by telling them a personal story of your own. A simple example I think everyone here can relate to: Betty is talking with Lucy.
Betty says "My boss is an a--hole!"
Betty- "He keeps me late every freakin day for no reason"
Lucy - "My boss is the same way......." Story Story Story.
JonathanA (You NLPers will recognize this... as sorting by "SAMENESS"... or perhaps by "SAMENESS with DIFFERENCE." I.e. if you respond by pointing out what's the same for you (whether or not you continue on with what's different).
DrSulo Unfortunately, like most persuasion techniques most people use "ME TOO" stories for drivel and complaints. You won't make that mistake, will you?
Insider99 So you don't solve their problem with your own story, you wait for them to relate their story first?
JonathanA No, he doesn't solve their problem. He wants them to reveal their issue, and that brings up all the unconscious goodies that you can catalog & use later. And by just sharing a story with them, THEY choose how/when to share theirs. Once they do, he's also been "let in on their personal issue." Which is a form of increased response potential, right?
Majhra How do you sort / save the information given to you? and specific submodality or other tricks to help?
JonathanA Sulo doesn't look for any of that. He's chunking higher & looks for the general patterns. Think outside the frame of NLP.
Insider99 If you solve someone's problems metaphorically, they rarely credit you.
JonathanA RIGHT! He doesn't attempt to solve the problem in the storytelling mode. It's just a way to be let in on their personal stuff. That gives him more information on what to provide/solve, and how to ideally do so.
DrSulo Most people have what I call the "ALONE IN A CROWDED ROOM" problem. You may have had a similar experience if you have ever been in love, seperated and then gone to a night club. People everywhere, but very lonely. In many corporate environments people have this feeling to a lesser extent, but they still have it.
Muggle Hrmm. Maybe I've missed something, or maybe i just like to whine; but what was the other option you were implying, when you said we wouldnt use a me-too story to complain. when we hear the other peoples problem, that's the easiest way towards rapport that i know of in that situation. what else could i be doing?
DrSulo Well in a situation where you want to elicit someone's problems, you do want to use a somewhat "complaining" story to elicit that "me-too" response. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. However, in general conversation where you want to elicit good states from people you want to be conscious of where you are directing their awareness with your stories.
Muggle I just wasn't sure what you mean when you said "Unfortunately, like most persuasion techniques most people use "ME TOO" stories for drivel and complaints. You won't make that mistake, will you?" Because I dont want to anchor people's problems to me by accident.
JonathanA Excellent point muggle. You're right, you don't.
DrSulo Well, you want to move quickly from problems to solutions.
JonathanA This is a huge topic, and Chris has shared some great stories on Turning Problems Into Opportunities... But while there's still time, let me ask you to run through your experiences and ask Chris some specific questions about HOW HE would solve some of your present persuasion challenges. Type them VERY SUCCINCTLY, and let Chris choose what we'll answer during the official chat time.
Majhra Turning around an the example given at the start - clumsiness ... ??
DrSulo Well the best way Mahjra would have been for my friend to brief her friend on what to say to the boss.
Muggle And a second question for after mahjra, while i certainly do see the advantages offered by 3ppi, is there any reason why i wouldnt try to approach the head person directly also?
DrSulo The friend could have said something like "I worked with ------ once before and she had over 40 regulars that came in nightly to see her. She drops things alot, but everyone loves here"
DrSulo This is a way to bring up a problem and innocluate it (if it truly is something she does often)
Majhra Obviously _before_ the issue ... and if she didn't ... how can she change the perception already built?
DrSulo This way perceptually their is more breadth to the way the owner will look at her
Muggle Reframing is good for changing prebuild conceptions
Muggle Much the same as pre-innoculating does
JonathanA Take OUTrageous ownership of the act, and then expand upon it. ADD to the humor of it, rather than try to downplay it.
DrSulo The idea is to take yourself from being a one-dimension perceptual character to a multi-dimensional one and by using humor to exaggerate you have added at least one dimension.
JonathanA That might require your friend to be a temporarily tall poppy, though, Mahjra... Does she need to decondition any cultural tendency there? (Mahjra is an Aussie, and some Australians are still emerging from a culturally-driven avoidance of being "tall poppies.")
Muggle What's a 'tall poppy,' if i may ask?

Tall poppies are the first to get their tops cut off. So if someone stands out too much, or if their heads get too big, they're the first to get taken down a notch.

Any other questions at this moment? If you have particular personal persuasion challenges, voice em nowwwwww!

Insider99 How do I get to doctors for 3PPI? (I'm a the-rapist)
DrSulo Find out places doctors congragte. Ie- conferences, associations, etc. Do you have a doctor? If so, have you spoken to them?
Insider99 Yeah, I see him every other year. Too healthy, you know. He's probably a good person to ask about networking.
DrSulo Strike up a conversation on some of the troubles in the medical industry (billing, referrals, etc.). What can you offer them to solve some of these problems?
Insider99 Nothing to do with making patients well then... ;)
DrSulo Start remembering what people offer as solutions and beginning matching them up with other people's troubles.
Persuasio Question: How do I ask my sister for money? I think she would lend it to me; it's just i'm not used to asking for money.
JonathanA Persuasio: Let's model the flip side of that. Soccergrl: What would your brother have to say/ask -- in order to get you to offer him some money? I recognize that the kitchen would probably sink first... but if there were a way, perhaps that would help our chatroom friend mr. persuasio. :)
Soccergrl :) Hmmm... Well, I bought something for him today. The money was a loan. :)
Persuasio Yes, it's just a loan i'm asking for. I'm out of a job right now.
Soccergrl What he did was... he made me laugh really hard.
JonathanA How did he broach the subject with you in a way that got a "yes" answer?
Soccergrl He wanted toilet plungers. :)
JonathanA He wanted Toilet Plungers. OK... and he made you laugh really hard. And what? Did he then just come right out & ask?
Soccergrl The question made me laugh. :) Picture an 8-year-old kid asking, "Will you buy me some toilet plungers?"
JonathanA What happened after you laughed?
Soccergrl I pictured what he would do with them. He wanted to use them to sword fight, and that was just... LOL.
JonathanA How did you negotiate the loan? What are the terms that worked for both of you? (After I hear the answer to this, we'll move on in topics).
Soccergrl I just said, "You'll pay me back, won't you?" And he said, "Yeah." We're only talking $3 here. :)
Muggle Is there any danger in just apporaching the head honcho in addition to 3PPI? I've been thinking about sitting in one of the chairs of the President of my university's lawn, and reading until he talks to me.
JonathanA The reason there's a corporate structure is to isolate the higher powers. So if you make a direct approach, you will probably not get enough facetime -- or enough opportunity to solve the head honcho's problem up front. Your message won't have enough impact to get YOU what you're after.
Muggle OK, I see.
JonathanA You need to work your way in, THROUGH their filters... UNDER or AROUND their filters, as opposed to working up against those filters. Alright folks! Excellent; Beautifully done tonight, Doktor Sulo! Whooo Hooooo!
DrSulo Thank you.
JonathanA Folks we've run out of time tonight, so I'm going to call an official halt to the chat; This is a NICE chunk of material for you to digest & enjoy.... Chris was VERY generous with his time & efforts.. THANK YOU CHRIS!!!! Whoooo hooooooooo! The sharpest & freshest material out there in the "persuasion field!"
KevM Interesting material! :)
Insider99 Much appreciated, AGAIN!
Stefan73 Thanks, Chris and Jonathan, been a nice chat starting to give me ideas on how to apply this!
Soccergrl Awesome. :)
HsiMay Thanks, Chris!
DrSulo You're welcome, everyone!
Theprogen Thank YOU, Jonathan!


[ Back to Top ] [ Back to Chat Index Page ]

Choose Category: