Chat Log: Featuring Dom Luzi: Practical NLP & Consulting
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Practical NLP & Consulting
IRC Chat Log, Aug 16, 1998
All Rights Reserved in all media; Publication rights for this chat are shared between Jonathan Altfeld and Dominic Luzi of Management Alchemy.
| Jonathan | Welcome to the chatroom, folks -- We're pleased Dom could join us tonight for a chat about Practical NLP™ & Consulting!
| PureNLP | Clap clap clap clap
| Jonathan | Dom runs Management Alchemy -- check out his website at www.managementalchemy.com -- and is not only an NLP™ Trainer but also a successful consultant! Lets get started right away with a nice high-level question: :) How do you use NLP™ in a business Environment?
| DomL | First rule: I never tell them what I'm doing.
| Jonathan | Reason being?
| DomL | There are lots of things in business that people have been meaning to do and just don't do! The trick is to keep them from going meta while you get them to run the process that you are installing! If people get stuck in the details they will waste their time and mine.
| Jonathan | Can I ask -- What do you mean by Going Meta, in a business sense? Are you referring to groups or individuals there?
| DomL | Both Jonathan... Going meta is when they think they know what you are doing... I avoid giving them too much information until I'm sure that they are ready.
| Jonathan | OK great, thanks for the clarification. Going Meta is one of those catch-phrases where everyone means something a little different. ;) Thank goodness, too!
| DomL | Yeah! The terms are not the important thing... I probably know fewer NLP™ terms than anyone. I don't care to name things only do them!
| Jonathan | Alright. So you run processes on/with your clients... and you find its important to hold off their meta knowledge while you accomplish what you set out to do, right?
| DomL | Yeah! Keep 'em at a high level until you need to fill in the detail.
| Jonathan | So lets float down just a bit.
| DomL | Ok!
| Jonathan | What kinds of processes do you frequently run... for what purposes... and with what sized groups! (don't need to get tiny-chunk for the time being)
| DomL | Lots of times it's nothing more then installing steps in their decision strategy so that they make decisions... Instead of hesitate and loop the uncertainty that they have... Most of the time it getting them to sort for what it is that they are not doing... And what will happen when they do them.
| Jonathan | Definitely! I used to see an unbelievable amount of hesitation when I did consulting. They were bringing in consultants precisely because they didn't know anything about the area they were exploring. So they are, from the beginning.... bringing you in for your expertise and advice...
| DomL | Or they thought they knew the answer and just wanted a hand holding session... I do not do those...
| Jonathan | Or hand-holding, true.
| DomL | If they knew what do do then they would already be doing it and would not need my services... Or anyone elses for that matter.
| Jonathan | Exactly! So how do they find you? How have you built up your client list (that's one that's often overlooked!)
| DomL | Word of mouth from existing customers... Web page hits... Bribes. You know, that sort of thing!
| Jonathan | Ah good. Give them my #. Especially about the bribes thing. LOL! OK -- here's a fun one -- have you ever seen this in BIZ? I went into one place as a consultant -- and they wanted our advice for a project -- which they then bought into. (big project, btw). And instead of trusting themselves to evaluate our services... they consulted with a 3rd party consulting org whose job it was to evaluate OUR consulting work! LOL! Something's missing from their own decision strategy there.
| nightshdw | LOL
| DomL | Yeah too many external checks... I encourage all my customers to talk with other customers about what it is that I can do for them...
| Jonathan | Thats the best advertising you can get. Because THEY are walking your prospects through their own decision strategy for hiring you, &/or hiring you again. Testimonials!
| DomL | This yields some very interesting results... I had one customer who say that they were not sure but... Somehow that are doing things that they had only talked about before I worked with them? And I was worth every cent of my fee. It's the rule of politics... You are not elected by people who like you but you are not elected by those who do not. I'm checking and testing all the time that the customer is getting more then they asked.
| Jonathan | OK. So -- would you say that your intentions -- your high-level approaches -- are applicable in all forms of consulting -- or are they particularly useful specifically in YOUR area of expertise?
| DomL | They are useful in all contexts!
| Jonathan | That's my bet too -- they apply to my experience.
| DomL | You can be an employee and still use the strategy.
| Jonathan | OK, thanks for bearing with me through this intro interview of sorts... Perhaps you have a presentation planned... or perhaps not... but I wonder if you could relay a story, for example... complete with specifics about the "domain" or type of consulting job... as to how you came into their company and used NLP™? Then we can open it up to general Q & A & discussion! Thanks!
| DomL | Sure... I was called into a company that had been trying to increase their business performance for five plus years but to no avail... They had a "high" level business consultant in there who was working with they on business plans... They in fact had been doing a good job of planning for over ten years by the time I got there... The only problem was that the plans they were making did not reflect reality... You know what was happening in the business on a day to day basis... There was no clear way to take their high level plans and assure that they would get the results... I came in and just talked with them about feedback and how to measure what was happening in the business... each and every day... We installed some measures that are done by the people who were actually doing the jobs...
| Jonathan | What were they deleting &/or distorting from those measurements?
| DomL | in the factory, in the office, everywhere... No Jonathan they though that planning was enough... Planning is just the start... You have to have specific steps to achieve results... And the flexibility and honesty to accept what is really going on and change what it is you are doing... to get the results you want or replan for new results... Sometimes people get more then they planned for and need to know what to do... to set new targets bigger ones.
| Jonathan | So -- you talked with them... and installed measurements... how & where did things change for them?
| DomL | easily and everywhere... They for the first time in five years exceeded their targets for revenue and expense reduction... They got the chance to experience what it is that is on the other side of goals... more goals and higher levels of performance... Specifically they managed to get products to customers in two week where before it took them tweleve.
| Jonathan | WOW! Thats measurable! ;)
| DomL | They reduced they inventory required to produce products by over 50%... That's money that goes right to the bank!
| Jonathan | Excellent! Herb had a good clarification question while you were relaying the story: HERB: "re: 'Measures' does he use the work of Eli Goldratt "Theory of Constraints" (I find this VERY NLP™ like)?" (while we were still on the topic of measurements)
| DomL | Some of Eli's stuff is real good... Some is questionable... It more they just using measures you have to... Install in them the ability to sort for what will make their job easier..
| HerbM | What part is questionable?
| DomL | There is no game plan in Goldratt as to how they should do things... there are lots and lots of suggestions on what to do but no real how... and no real flexibility about to change your mind as the situation requires... Goldratt does not teach how to sort for the things really make a difference each and every day. He does not make those really fine disitnctions on a daily basis. If you use the pareto principle... the one that says that 20% of the problems if solved will yield 80% of the results... Too many business spend too much time in what I call a rat hole... Searching for the really really small things that have no real value... I install in my clients the ability to experience things for what they really are... not just what they think they are... We had a friend over for dinner who is going through a divorce and my six year old was sitting at the table ...I asked this friend how one aspect of his divorice... He told me that he thought that it was going such and such a way... My son looked at me and says "He's lying to himself Dad!" My friend looks at me and says what did he say... I told DJ (my son) to tell him what he said... He looks at the guy and says "You're lying to yourself"... That's like thinking that I have a toy and not knowing that I do... If you think you know then you don't really know... Well the guy just about fell on the floor... The same applies everywhere... If you think you know and don't check it in experience then you are just lying to youself... And you need to check it out until you really know.
| Jonathan | True! Funny story. Can we hop up a bit?
| DomL | Thanks... And true. Sure...
| Jonathan | John La Valle had a couple of great questions:
| DomL | He usually does!!!
| PureNLP | What's the first thing you do when you go into a company? Any kind of studies, or inventories, or what?
| DomL | I sort for how the company... All the people in it respond and conform to as standard set of rules. What the limits are of what they can get away with and what they cannot. Everyone in the company has to work for the same set of goals and in the same direction... As for the studies... They are not usually needed... There are only so many problems that they can have... They can have lots and lots of symptoms of the same problems... there can be thousands and thousands of hints... It usually boils down to a much smaller list... of real problems and real opportunities... Communication is a real big issue...
| Jonathan | Thats true, its important that we NOT add more to their process than they need and cause unnecessary work!
| DomL | People have forgotten to talk with one another! This happened back in the 60's when the telecopier was introduced... Departments that did not streamline what it is that they are doing got swamped by fax request to do more... And that just lead to not doing more and more... the pile of unfinished work just got higher... That is happening today with email... It is easier to send someone an email and not deliver the message personally.
| Jonathan | Yes, Email... and ALSO... those online network meeting schedulers that no one pays attention to!
| DomL | ROTFL!
| Jonathan | "Didn't you see my meeting scheduled??? It was on the Ca-LAN-dar!" "Oh, I don't watch that old thing." Sign 'O the times. OK next question: John also asked: "How do you use NLP™ in groups.... AND.... what changes you've noticed when using NLP™ in business and/or in groups?"
| DomL | As far as using NLP™ with groups and business... Have you ever noticed that in order to move up in a corporation you need to have a company mindset?
| Jonathan | Definitely! The old-boy network thing (which now includes the old-girl network thing too)
| DomL | There are things that will propel people forward in organizations and things that will hold them back... Certain processes work that same for better in a business... It is always to arrange a group in order of the meta programs that are running at that moment... You ask the person who never thinks things can be done first... and end up with the person who has seen things done and that they are possible and the last to respond... You can build up the objections and then have them innoculate themselves against their own objections as you move from... person to person... You can build a direction this way... you need to set some rules as you are doing this... you tell everyone that once they have spoken their peace they are not allowed to speak again till everyone is finished...
| PureNLP | Dom, I'll fill in for Jonathan for a moment.
| DomL | OK!
| PureNLP | from Herb: For DOML: Is he usually working with THE decision makers, up from the workers, or with everyone all at once?
| DomL | Depends on the situation at hand... I always work for the decision makers... to start... I work with then on what it is that they need and want from the project we are working... We add in what they did not know about... Possible drawbacks and advantages... then I use work with the other people so that I can gather more information... Such that they can get the results they desire... I have trained entire companies... in small groups... And worked only with executives in others.
| PureNLP | And, what's your biggest challenge with dealing with the top of the org?
| DomL | Accepting feedback! There are times that they do not want to accept what it is that people are telling them... As long as it's not meaningless.
| PureNLP | Great, thanks. Three q's from Senseless, one at a time! Firstly: What else does he use in consulting (eg, any DHE)?
| DomL | Yeah lots and lots of DHE... I use DHE in the setting directions... Building new things that they did not think about until the moment that they did.
| PureNLP | Secondly, how specifically does he use installation with his business clients?
| DomL | Are you asking for techniques or the process that I run and have them run?
| Senseless | Process
| DomL | Good question... first we run through what it is that they want... not what they don't want but what it is that they do run... then we add to it what it is that they had not thought about... and build something what will get them what they want and more... and build in the feedback loops where necessary... is that what you are looking for?
| Senseless | Yep, thanks!
| DomL | You're welcome!
| PureNLP | Thirdly: How does he describe NLP™ to them and if he does not how does he introduce what it is he'll do with them?
| DomL | I do not describe to them what is is that I'll do with them... I just do it with them!
| PureNLP | From thefool: when you approach a company, do you aproach it as a person (i.e. as a whole) or do you meta it to bits? If you do what is the sequence you use?
| DomL | What do you mean "meta it to bits?"
| thefool | Do you take the company apart... the proceces they run... the way they work...
| DomL | Not usually at first... I know what process they should be running and sort for those... Then I sort for what it is that they are not running and should be... then do the installation work... Larger pieces first... detail later... They have already spend to much time in the detail and are getting questionable results... So you have to get them out of the detail for starters.
| PureNLP | from the fool: so first of all you are a consoulter, and the NLP™ is a tool you use and not the other way around ..
| DomL | Yeah NLP™ to me is not something that I think about doing... I just use whatever it is that I have to do to get them moving in a new direction... I told you that I don't care to know many NLP™ terms or names for techniques... I only care about getting the results that they hired me to get.
| PureNLP | from Bob-O: Do you set up-front the goals that you will attain for your customers or do you leave it open-ended?
| DomL | I work with their goals when that will get them results... If the goals are too specific and cannot be achieved and even if they did they would be no better off... I get them to change their goals.
| PureNLP | from Senseless: Do you do any work with Sales Companies and if so what sort of stuff?
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