
IRC Chat Log, July 5, 1998
All rights reserved; publication rights to the text content of this chat log are shared by & between J. Altfeld & W. Anderson.
TOPIC: Language Patterns: A Step beyond the Basics! | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jonathan | Well, for starters, thanks EVERYONE for coming, this is an excellent crowd! I'd like to give a BIG round of applause and a warm welcome to Wesley Anderson, NLP Trainer, and Doctor of Hypnotherapy in Atlanta GA. Thanks for coming to chat with me & the group here, Wesley! {applause ON!} Take it away!
| Tranzpupy | Hip hip hooray
| NLPerDude | I'm honored to be here, Jon
| Tenore | Welcome!!
| Dreamer | Yep, THANKS for coming
| NLPerDude | First I'd like to get an idea of the backgrounds of those here. Briefly of course
| Jonathan | Speak up folks -- a couple of words from you will help Wesley tailor the chat to you!
| Dreamer | Well, I'm newbie at this... my first contact with nlp was with Ross's stuff
| TokyoChas | ... is a beginner
| Wendiii | Hypnotherapist for 2 1/2 years, sprinkled with NLP. Also have a new job doing sales training for a radio station.
| Tangram | Just books, no training.
| Tenore | I've read alot of NLP books and have a load of tapes; no formal training yet.
| Occum | Relative beginner with a strong interest in persuasion, to that end language patterns, etc. :-)
| EnchntCat | Many nlp books and tapes, no training yet
| Tranzpupy | Jonathans 13-day prac training!
| Stefan | Just books, and NLP pract. study buddy. Been doing NLP for about a year. No real training yet.
| moodswing | I have done research with past lives and nlp anchoring powerfulstates of pastlives in the present
| sabren | <-ex-reading teacher a.p.nlp junkie and one-time apprentice to a particular trainer..
| glen_IMOP | Read a few books. Fledgling practicing so far.
| MichaelR | ...books...tapes...increasing amounts of practice...
| NLPerDude | I'd like to start with a little history of how I got interested in the L side of NLP. I started out with a weekend hypnosis training. I started reading as much as I could, and memorizing scripts. I thought there were some magic words... If I only said them my clients would be healed, or at least reach their goals. Disappointment followed. I read a few NLP bookks like Frogs into Princes and began to appreciate the way that Bandler and Grinder used words was more than rote scripting, and I bagan to study Erickson It became clear that language patterns are only effective when ued in conjunction with all of the other NLP communications skills. Rapport, calibration and so on. So what I want to address tonight is how to use it all together. You with me so far?
| MichaelR, tranzpupy, Stefan, TokyoChas, Occum, EnchntCat, wendii, Tenore, tangram, Jonathan, disguised, moodswing, Dreamer | Yes.
| NLPerDude | I started by memorizing scripts. So when I read my first NLP book, I recognized it as HYPNOSIS. The language of hypnosis had become familiar, though there were no labels or categories for my conscious mind yet. The next step was in reading Trance-Formations.
| Jonathan | I love that book!
| NLPerDude | The Milton model was spelled out and I began to make more distinctions. So I practiced by writing out paragraphs, using each pattern at least once in each. The result was that the patterns began to flow from my lips effortlessly. Now my strategy is to simply keep my outcome in mind and talk. The patterns to support my outcome are just there. Please note the "just there" in that last sentence. It's trance language. I am speaking the trance stuff in a trance of sorts myself. Keep in mind that I'm having a lot of fun with it, too!
| Tenore | So immersion seems to be a pretty good start as far as mastering patterns?
| NLPerDude | Right on tenore. Immersion is what I've found that works best for me.
| Wild1 | Is a pattern just a collection of words or is the process a pattern in itself???
| Jonathan | Yes Wild1 ;)
| NLPerDude | Thanks, Tom. That's one of the points that I most wanted to make tonight.
| Wild1 | I am quicker than I look
| Occum | The writing out makes sense to me.
| NLPerDude | The langage patterns are not important for their own sake. It's the web of trance and the whole gestalt of the communication that make the language work. The writing is very powerful in learning, and I'd recommend reading too.
| Occum | Thats why incongruency will mess it up right? Its like a painting its the whole thats beautiful.
| TokyoChas | Reading aloud, for practice, you mean?
| NLPerDude | If you want to really get into the patterns read some of the posts on alt.psychology.nlp for the patterns of logic. Congruence is imperative of course.
| moodswing | I was learning english and the first english o learned was this patterns,
| Wild1 | Explain logical patterns Wes
| NLPerDude | Logical patterns - if you examine the train of thought in some posts, you will find trance logic to be the motivator of persuasion, rather than straightforward logic or facts. Y'all with me?
| TokyoChas, moodswing, Occum, tranzpupy, Jonathan, MichaelR, ddii | y
| Wild1 | How about a short example
| Dreamer | So, you're saying we're all persuaded by those patterns, wes?
| Jonathan | Hmmmm.
| NLPerDude | One of my favorites was a post by Stever Robbins arguing that NLP could not be done in text! We're not all persuaded by those patterns, but we may need to take a second look to realize that we may not agree.
| Wild1 | I loved that post
| NLPerDude | I did too, Tom. Stever used all the patterns of NLP to argue that it couldn't be effective
| Jonathan | Wesley - I'm curious -- do you mean that people are letting the patterns get in the way of, and be the motivator of the posts, rather than letting the issues at hand drive the posts -- with the patterns used in support of the issues?
| NLPerDude | Yes, the posts are examples of trance induction and suggestion... to put it one way
| Wild1 | It seems that the patterns guide the reader to the point of view of the author
| NLPerDude | Yes Tom
| Dreamer | And what's your opinion, Wes? Can you persuade someone just by throwing text in his/her face?
| Jonathan | Lets clarify that ;) Stever didn't use a lot of grammatically incorrect patterns... He used a lot of NLP patterns within the framework of correct grammar and easy readability. He did a lot with presuppositions! His argument was very strong in presenting how many milton model intended grammatical inconsistencies did not work well or read well online!
| NLPerDude | Correct Jon. Grammatically correct sentences can be Milton model patterns too. Stever argued a lot of different points. I agree with him that it's not possible to use tonality much via text, but that doen't lead me to agree that persuasion or even some therapy can't be done
| Wendiii | Advertisers do it all the time
| Jonathan | Hah! Yes they do wendii! OK. Wesley, let me ask a question about your development with these patterns. Once you started to achieve greater fluidity, through practice and usage, what did you learn... where did that take you?
| Dreamer | :) OK, Wes... good question, Jonathan
| NLPerDude | I started to develop my skills at reframing, context/content as oppossed the the 6 step technique. Bandler's use of humor really grabed me and I started getting my clients to laugh at their "problems"
| Dreamer | Kind of changing their believes?
| Wild1 | So Humor is a type of pattern....
| NLPerDude | Yes, humor is one of my greatest weaopns in changing beliefs. One of my clients started complaining about a relationship that she was in and I had her crying tears of laughter for 10 minutes and she could care less abotu the guy now!
| Jonathan | :) I love those stories --- did you do a followup with her?
| NLPerDude | She never had any more to do with the guy
| Jonathan | Thats what I call generative change... because its one thing to change a state or demeanor in your office... another to have it be generative and have her maintain the laughter and the ease when she sees him again or gets back home to the existing anchors!
| Dreamer | Yes, like ross would say... how to laugh yourself to the ultimate seduction
| NLPerDude | Humor is a type of reframing, and leads to anchor collapsing.
| Jonathan | Sure does!
| NLPerDude | One of the other things I want to touch on is the oppostie of talking... which is listening. I make mistakes when I'm talking. When I listen to what I say, I can correct myself immediately.
| Jonathan | (laughing) -- me too, Wesley... sometimes I make *really* good mistakes and then I utilize them ;)
| Dreamer | What do you mean by that, wes?
| NLPerDude | When I listen to what I'm saying, and I say "I hope you don't feel Too bad about X" I'l switch it to I hope you are startign to feel good
| Dreamer | Is that some kind of future-pacing? So, it's a little trick with words?
| NLPerDude | It's simply directing attention in the direction that I'd like to go. Yes, a type of future-pacing.
| Dreamer | OK... please go on
| NLPerDude | It's not so much a trick as a means of aligning every part of the communication. Congruency
| Tenore | You've no doubt noticed that Wes is going to tell us what he is hear to say..
| NLPerDude | I'm open to taking another direction too, if you have questions.
| TokyoChas | Enjoying following your progress
| Dreamer | Future-pacing helps on that, i'd say
| Jonathan | Hmmm actually thats a really useful direction to go in... about how to reframe the directions we choose! Lets talk about that! Language and Directions...
| NLPerDude | Well. Bandler likes to say that anything can mean anything else, which is content reframing
| Dreamer | Kind of meta-model basic, right?
| NLPerDude | Yes. The meta model is oneof my basic tools for both info-gathering and changework .
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