NLP Chat: Featuring Wesley Anderson!

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IRC Chat Log, July 5, 1998

NLP Trainer Wesley Anderson, Atlanta GA TOPIC: Language Patterns: A Step beyond the Basics!
Jonathan	Well, for starters, thanks EVERYONE for coming, this is an excellent crowd! I'd like to give a BIG round of applause and a warm welcome to Wesley Anderson, NLP Trainer, and Doctor of Hypnotherapy in Atlanta GA. Thanks for coming to chat with me & the group here, Wesley! {applause ON!} Take it away!
Tranzpupy	Hip hip hooray
NLPerDude	I'm honored to be here, Jon
Tenore	Welcome!!
Dreamer	Yep, THANKS for coming
NLPerDude	First I'd like to get an idea of the backgrounds of those here. Briefly of course
Jonathan	Speak up folks -- a couple of words from you will help Wesley tailor the chat to you!
Dreamer	Well, I'm newbie at this... my first contact with NLP was with Ross's stuff
TokyoChas	... is a beginner
Wendiii	Hypnotherapist for 2 1/2 years, sprinkled with NLP. Also have a new job doing sales training for a radio station.
Tangram	Just books, no training.
Tenore	I've read alot of NLP books and have a load of tapes; no formal training yet.
Occum	Relative beginner with a strong interest in persuasion, to that end language patterns, etc. :-)
EnchntCat	Many NLP books and tapes, no training yet
Tranzpupy	Jonathan's NLP Practitioner Training!
Stefan	Just books, and NLP practitioner study buddy. Been doing NLP for about a year. No real training yet.
moodswing	I have done research with past lives and NLP Anchoring powerfulstates of pastlives in the present
sabren	(I'm an ex- reading teacher, a.p.nlp junkie, and one-time apprentice to a particular trainer..
glen_IMOP	Read a few books. Fledgling practicing so far.
MichaelR	...books...tapes...increasing amounts of practice...
NLPerDude	I'd like to start with a little history of how I got interested in the L side of NLP. I started out with a weekend hypnosis training. I started reading as much as I could, and memorizing scripts. I thought there were some magic words... If I only said them my clients would be healed, or at least reach their goals. Disappointment followed. I read a few NLP books like Frogs into Princes and began to appreciate the way that Bandler and Grinder used words was more than rote scripting, and I bagan to study Erickson It became clear that language patterns are only effective when ued in conjunction with all of the other NLP communications skills. Rapport, calibration and so on. So what I want to address tonight is how to use it all together. You with me so far?
MichaelR, tranzpupy, Stefan, TokyoChas, Occum, EnchntCat, wendii, Tenore, tangram, Jonathan, disguised, moodswing, Dreamer	Yes.
NLPerDude	I started by memorizing scripts. So when I read my first NLP book, I recognized it as HYPNOSIS. The language of hypnosis had become familiar, though there were no labels or categories for my conscious mind yet. The next step was in reading Trance-Formations.
Jonathan	I love that book!
NLPerDude	The Milton model was spelled out and I began to make more distinctions. So I practiced by writing out paragraphs, using each pattern at least once in each. The result was that the patterns began to flow from my lips effortlessly. Now my strategy is to simply keep my outcome in mind and talk. The patterns to support my outcome are just there. Please note the "just there" in that last sentence. It's trance language. I am speaking the trance stuff in a trance of sorts myself. Keep in mind that I'm having a lot of fun with it, too!
Tenore	So immersion seems to be a pretty good start as far as mastering patterns?
NLPerDude	Right on tenore. Immersion is what I've found that works best for me.
Wild1	Is a pattern just a collection of words or is the process a pattern in itself???
Jonathan	Yes Wild1 ;)
NLPerDude	Thanks, Tom. That's one of the points that I most wanted to make tonight.
Wild1	I am quicker than I look
Occum	The writing out makes sense to me.
NLPerDude	The langage patterns are not important for their own sake. It's the web of trance and the whole gestalt of the communication that make the language work. The writing is very powerful in learning, and I'd recommend reading too.
Occum	Thats why incongruency will mess it up right? Its like a painting its the whole thats beautiful.
TokyoChas	Reading aloud, for practice, you mean?
NLPerDude	If you want to really get into the patterns read some of the posts on alt.psychology.nlp for the patterns of logic. Congruence is imperative of course.
moodswing	I was learning english and the first english o learned was this patterns,
Wild1	Explain logical patterns Wes
NLPerDude	Logical patterns - if you examine the train of thought in some posts, you will find trance logic to be the motivator of persuasion, rather than straightforward logic or facts. Y'all with me?
TokyoChas, moodswing, Occum, tranzpupy, Jonathan, MichaelR, ddii	y
Wild1	How about a short example
Dreamer	So, you're saying we're all persuaded by those patterns, wes?
Jonathan	Hmmmm.
NLPerDude	One of my favorites was a post by Stever Robbins arguing that NLP could not be done in text! We're not all persuaded by those patterns, but we may need to take a second look to realize that we may not agree.
Wild1	I loved that post
NLPerDude	I did too, Tom. Stever used all the patterns of NLP to argue that it couldn't be effective
Jonathan	Wesley - I'm curious -- do you mean that people are letting the patterns get in the way of, and be the motivator of the posts, rather than letting the issues at hand drive the posts -- with the patterns used in support of the issues?
NLPerDude	Yes, the posts are examples of trance induction and suggestion... to put it one way
Wild1	It seems that the patterns guide the reader to the point of view of the author
NLPerDude	Yes Tom
Dreamer	And what's your opinion, Wes? Can you persuade someone just by throwing text in his/her face?
Jonathan	Lets clarify that ;) Stever didn't use a lot of grammatically incorrect patterns... He used a lot of NLP patterns within the framework of correct grammar and easy readability. He did a lot with presuppositions! His argument was very strong in presenting how many milton model intended grammatical inconsistencies did not work well or read well online!
NLPerDude	Correct Jon. Grammatically correct sentences can be Milton model patterns too. Stever argued a lot of different points. I agree with him that it's not possible to use tonality much via text, but that doen't lead me to agree that persuasion or even some therapy can't be done
Wendiii	Advertisers do it all the time
Jonathan	Hah! Yes they do wendii! OK. Wesley, let me ask a question about your development with these patterns. Once you started to achieve greater fluidity, through practice and usage, what did you learn... where did that take you?
Dreamer	:) OK, Wes... good question, Jonathan
NLPerDude	I started to develop my skills at reframing, context/content as oppossed the the 6 step technique. Bandler's use of humor really grabed me and I started getting my clients to laugh at their "problems"
Dreamer	Kind of changing their believes?
Wild1	So Humor is a type of pattern....
NLPerDude	Yes, humor is one of my greatest weaopns in changing beliefs. One of my clients started complaining about a relationship that she was in and I had her crying tears of laughter for 10 minutes and she could care less abotu the guy now!
Jonathan	:) I love those stories --- did you do a followup with her?
NLPerDude	She never had any more to do with the guy
Jonathan	Thats what I call generative change... because its one thing to change a state or demeanor in your office... another to have it be generative and have her maintain the laughter and the ease when she sees him again or gets back home to the existing anchors!
Dreamer	Yes, like ross would say... how to laugh yourself to the ultimate seduction
NLPerDude	Humor is a type of reframing, and leads to anchor collapsing.
Jonathan	Sure does!
NLPerDude	One of the other things I want to touch on is the oppostie of talking... which is listening. I make mistakes when I'm talking. When I listen to what I say, I can correct myself immediately.
Jonathan	(laughing) -- me too, Wesley... sometimes I make really good mistakes and then I utilize them ;)
Dreamer	What do you mean by that, wes?
NLPerDude	When I listen to what I'm saying, and I say "I hope you don't feel Too bad about X" I'l switch it to I hope you are startign to feel good
Dreamer	Is that some kind of future-pacing? So, it's a little trick with words?
NLPerDude	It's simply directing attention in the direction that I'd like to go. Yes, a type of future-pacing.
Dreamer	OK... please go on
NLPerDude	It's not so much a trick as a means of aligning every part of the communication. Congruency
Tenore	You've no doubt noticed that Wes is going to tell us what he is hear to say..
NLPerDude	I'm open to taking another direction too, if you have questions.
TokyoChas	Enjoying following your progress
Dreamer	Future-pacing helps on that, i'd say
Jonathan	Hmmm actually thats a really useful direction to go in... about how to reframe the directions we choose! Lets talk about that! Language and Directions...
NLPerDude	Well. Bandler likes to say that anything can mean anything else, which is content reframing
Dreamer	Kind of meta-model basic, right?
NLPerDude	Yes. The meta model is oneof my basic tools for both info-gathering and changework .
Jonathan	OK. So you use the Meta Model for information gathering.... what kinds of language clues/cues might you listen for... that aren't necessarily Meta Model related?
NLPerDude	Metaphors. Someone might say that they just need some distance on their problem... I listen for their analog marking too. I DON'T want to quit nail biting
Jonathan	What exactly would that example indicate to you?
Tangram	What's analog marking?
Jonathan	Analog marking is a way that people can EMPHASIZE or MARK OUT certain words.... to convey a different set of meanings... indeed an entirely different set of suggestions... in the language.
Tangram	Why would you listen for that, outside of the normal process of understanding what someone's saying?
NLPerDude	I'm back after a brief sip enforced vacation
Tranzpupy	I really think YOU should SHUT that window UP!
Jonathan	Here's an example: "I don't want people to LAUGH at politicians... because its HARDER for them to do their job...." Two separate communications offered to you. The literal content, and the capitalized content: LAUGH HARDER! Make sense?
Tangram	Yes. Do people really notice that? And what would you get out of "I DON'T want to quit smoking"?
NLPerDude	I'd get back from the DON'T that there was a multiple set of impulses going on at the same time: yes and no both.
Jonathan	Tangram -- people don't usually notice it consciously. But the human brain works sequentially and does respond to anchoring... so I'd say, YES, people do respond and hear those messages, though not always consciously.
Dreamer	The power of the Subconscious mind.
NLPerDude	I would likely reflect back both messages to the person as a way of getting raport with both sides
Dreamer	Wes, that's about smoking?
Tangram	What might you say to reflect both of those messages back?
NLPerDude	Yes Jon, we do get both messages even if we don't notice them both consciously. Yes the DON'T would indicate that they want to quit and keep smoking both. I might nod and say "so you Don't want to quit..." or I might tell them that they must want to keep smoking or they'd have quit already.
Jonathan	I like the latter, it validates both sides concurrently
NLPerDude	Responding in two channels (nodding & the verbal channel) can be a great confuser, and it's usually good for a laugh on the client's part, too!
Dreamer	It sounds like a kind of reversed psychology to me
NLPerDude	Reversed psychology usually refers to a polarity response in which the other person does the opposite of what they're asked to do.
Dreamer	Yes... and you want them to quit smoking, right? Using that you could make them quit smoking, I think!!! But back on the subject
Jonathan	Taking this as an example, what directions are they choosing when they say something like "I DON'T want to quit smoking." And what do you like to do with directions in goal-setting... and how do you help them achieve better results?
NLPerDude	In the case of a double message, the person is usually conscious of the outcome that they're paying me to help them with, the other I take as a message that I need to address the functions of smoking in another way that the unconscious finds pleasing
Dreamer	So, you're kind of invinting them to see both parts? The yes and no of smoking?
NLPerDude	I wish I could make people quit smoking Dreamer, It would make my life SO much easier
Dreamer	Would it to all of us? Do you smoke?
NLPerDude	I may or may not invite conscious recognition of both sides. Ususally I do as a way of enhancing the person's rapport with him/herself. I don't smoke.
Wild1	Wes, is it an issue of making people do things or moving them in a direction they want to go, with the tools to do it
Dreamer	Thought so... NLP is supposed to give you the strength to make better persons of ourselves
NLPerDude	My clients sometimes think that I can MAKE them do things or not. I have the ability to influence them and set a context in which positive change is likely.
Wild1	I never liked the "make people do things" mentality
Tenore	I know someone who is fairly constantly focused on the negative side of things, and,it seems to me, covertly critical in their language towards others, using statements that could imply blame or guilt. When I listen to this person, I either get upset or want to argue them out of whatever they are saying...what would be a more elegant thing to do, using language patterns?
Dreamer	Great question, tenore
TokyoChas	Work on not being iritated?
NLPerDude	Here's a great pattern for you to use. Say "yes...and" add something to what the other person says that will reframe it in a positive light
Tenore	Aside from that, TokoyoChas :)
TokyoChas	:)
Jonathan	OK!
NLPerDude	Yes the person talks negatively, and It's a great opportunity to learn ablut reframing
Jonathan	Try me, Wes: respond to this with that approach:
NLPerDude	OK!
Jonathan	"Damn, Wesley, every time I come home, my roommate just pisses me off. He won't keep the place clean."
NLPerDude	Yes that can be a pisser, and I wonder if you recognize all of the good qualities that your roommate has to share at those moments too, or do you just wait til later?
Jonathan	"Well, he makes a great meatloaf. But he waits at least 3 hours to clean up the kitchen."
NLPerDude	Yes, cleaning sooner would be good, and I think I'll have another slice
Jonathan	(Laughing!) "But how can I make him clean up the kitchen and the rest of the place more regularly?"
NLPerDude	Humor is the best reframe, appologies to Reader's Digest. If you want to make him do that I'd suggest a gun. How well would you respond to him trying to make you do something?
Jonathan	Hmmmmmmmm. That would be the start of a generative change, if I were the character in the example.
Tenore	I know someone who is an avoidance freak. In conversations, there is a on-going effort to get off the topic, to distract, to but-in when I'm speaking; this person is visibily nervous and somehwat flighty in behavior, looking askance, checking their watch, etc. I always leave the conversations feeling either misunderstood or un-understood!! How can I leave the next time feeling like we have connected, using language patterns?
finter	Jon - why not refame yourself to live in a messy house? Adapt to your surroundings!
Wild1	Wes, Language Patterns oer only one part of what is going on ..Right? Rapport and everything else still counts
Jonathan	Wesley, in the last msg, takes "me" the clean-freak to the extremes of making someone do something... with the "gun" example. That's enough to "make" me back myself away from my present position of "making" someone clean up!
NLPerDude	Tenore it might be interesting to find out how that person signals to someone else that he understands and is listening by asking him directly.
Tenore	Great suggestion!
NLPerDude	Direct can be better than covert, especially when it comes to interpreting someone elses's communications.
Wild1	Gee, direct comuniction... Who would of thunk of that???
Jonathan	Lets take stock! Who's with us? (y/n)
Wild1, tranzpupy, Tenore, MichaelR, TokyoChas, Stefan, Dreamer, finter, tangram, Chris-A, Occu, disguised	Y
NLPerDude	Anyone got any questions about language patterns or stuff that we haven't touched on yet?
Tranzpupy	How about using language patterns on yourself?
NLPerDude	Since we talk to ourselves we are doing so already! I like to rephrase myself if I don't like what I hear coming from myself, so yes, though using language patterns on ourselves will be a bit diferent than with others. It's not likely that we'll be able to surprise ourselves with a reframe, for example! We can however, continuously generate positive language to move ourselves in a generative and positive direction.
Wild1	Sometmes not in the best way
Tranzpupy	How about making them effective toward a desired outcome?
Dreamer	How about using language patterns to create rapport?
Stefan	You haven't talked much yet about anchoring, and then using the feelings anchored and presenting a suggestion at the same time?
Tenore	Is surprise a requisite for change, do you think?
Dreamer	It's like an anchor towards more positive thinking?
NLPerDude	Surprise is a major element in humor and reframing. It is not necessary for trance inductions, presuppositions, or most of the other patterns to work.
Tenore	Yes
finter	I find repeating things over and over in my head a certain phrase for example "I love wide open spaces" continuosly all day long very helpfull
NLPerDude	Yes an anchor to generate positive thinking, and it can also be reinforced with conscious intention. It's a way of making suggestions to ourselves.
Dreamer	So you know what you're doing, and that only makes it work better.
NLPerDude	Yes
Dreamer	Makes sense
NLPerDude	I'd like to make a few recommendations about learning the patterns. Writing them out is a great way to learn. I'd like to recommend Bandler's Persuasion engineering tapes. John La Valle did a great piece on language in them. After listening to the PE tapes I was really picking up on the ambiguities, like puns. They're GOOD!
Jonathan	Tape 3, I believe... La Valle discusses the structure of HUMOR. Not Jokes, but Humor!
Dreamer	Humor is a good way to create rapport
Wild1	I will be over to borrow them Wesley!!!
Occum	I know that there is value in hearing the stuff, but is there more material on the tapes as well, vs. the book that is.
Jonathan	I might qualify that, Dreamer... Humor is a good way to increase the likelihood of rapport... getting people laughing is not rapport by itself... but it can HELP strongly pave the way to rapport.
Dreamer	Yes, I agree; Humor is not the only tool that one needs.
NLPerDude	Yes the tapes and book have different stories and teach some of the same patterns differently
Occum	Hmm maybe I'll get both then.
Jonathan	So those are a great source of language patterns!
Stefan	I tried the approach of having both a set of typical "Milton" words, and also having a few examples of structures of messages. Then you pick freely from those sets and throw something together. Worked nice for me.
Dreamer	But people tend to become more relaxed... if you make them laugh
Jonathan	I'll give everyone the homework assignment I got at a Bandler/ La Valle training, and which I give my students... Write FIFTY (50) of each of the following language ambiguity patterns: (1) Phonological Ambiguities (2) Syntactic Ambiguities (3) Punctuation Ambiguities (4) Scope Ambiguities
NLPerDude	Trance-Formations is great for examples of language and Larry McLauchlin's "Advanced Language Patterns Mastery"
Jonathan	Oh, GREAT references, Wesley!
Dreamer	Stefan... what words are those?
Stefan	The appendix of Trance-Formations has them.
Tangram	What's a scope ambiguity?
Jonathan	For that you have to do some research! OK! Lets tie it in together folks!
Tranzpupy	There are some exercises on the Larry McLauchlin web site...
Wild1	Wes, would you say that getting out into the world a good way to practice???
NLPerDude	Sure, Tom. Practice talkin' funny to folks and notice the responses. Have fun!
Wild1	Hell, I do that already:)
Dreamer	LOL!
Jonathan	Wesley -- how would you prioritize the study of language patterns into an overall pursuit of mastery of NLP Techniques (prior to taking a training, of course)
NLPerDude	I'd start with reframing, making anything mean anything else...That would mean having lots of fun when you write out all of those ambiguities for Jon ;-) I'd learn them as one of the first things. If we can speak cleanly, then the words supporting our intentions we will have to communicate better. I'd recommend read Trance formations aloud , too. That's a fun way to learn new rythms and ways of using the words
Chris-a	If you don't do them jonathan's dog will bite you
Jonathan	Zoe'll come in and lick everyone.
Wild1	Oh that feels gooood! A little to the left!
TokyoChas	Woah! pattern interrupt. Zoe?
Jonathan	Zoe is my German Shepherd
TokyoChas	:)
Tenore	Wes, what strikes you as the most important thing you have learned lately regarding these language patterns?
NLPerDude	Tenore, that I have a lot more to learn. And, that listening is more important than speaking
Tenore	I hear ya!
Jonathan	Sounds good...
Wild1	Wesley is being modest... he is one of the MOST knowlegdable people around when it comes to language!
NLPerDude	As I said in the beginning the words aren't magic. WE can make magic by using words well, but there's more... Calibration, paying attention to the other person and noticing what their responses mean and will to be playful and even weird on occasson can be what mnakes the difference! Weird on occassion means to be outlandish. It gives the other person room to go outside of accostomed boundries sometimes.
Dreamer	You're kind of pacing pacing pacing leading, Wes? Mirroring is good, right? But i kind of find it difficult
Jonathan	Dreamer, mirroring is something we all unconsciously do well, some of the time.
NLPerDude	Mirroring is GREAT! I once had a client who said she wanted to be "gaunt" and sucked her cheeks in.
Jonathan	Its a matter of getting conscious control and practice with it!
NLPerDude	I mirrored it back. She looked at me and said, "that's really crazy, isn't it?" I agreed. She dropped that nonsense and developed a reasonable goal for her weight control program!
Jonathan	That's terrific, Wesley!
Dreamer	Jonathan, how about doing a chat about all those things?
Jonathan	There is a chat on Calibration now on the site, Dreamer!
Dreamer	Yes, I've downloaded it
Jonathan	I think now is a good time to wrap up! How would you like to do so?
NLPerDude	I'll be happy to field any more Questions
Jonathan	Well for starters then... HOW can people get in touch with you for changework?
NLPerDude	My phone is 770 310 5518 and email is wesley@cheerful.com
finter	I have one: I was gonna ask about UK english! There are many differences between American English etc.
moodswing	There are ABOUT 2500 different dialects in the US alone. Have the patterns worked well on foreigners as well as native english speakers?
Jonathan	The initial primary NLP models we have were done with English. Transformational Grammar studies were done mostly in English. But this has translated into many different languages, more or less effectively... French, Spanish, & German were among the first language alternatives to English in acquiring NLP training. I know a fellow in Istanbul by the name of Cengiz Eran -- who is working on a Turkish NLP model.
Tenore	Wes, have you or are you writing any books regarding language patterns?
NLPerDude	Tenore, none in the works. I have a full plate with work at the moment
Dreamer	Well... my question is... what type of language pattern is better to create rapport?
Stefan	And there are some Swedes working on a Swedish Meta Model. I haven't seen the result yet though.
Tenore	Wes, do you have a favorite quote or phrase that helps keep you on track as you go through your day at work helping others change?
Jonathan	Great Q, Tenore!
NLPerDude	What I have is the certainty that my clients CAN and WILL get their outcomes, no matter what hypnotic powers they try to use on me to make me think that they are hopeless! I take the long view. Erickson said that he never failded with a client, although he wasn't finished with all of them.
Jonathan	Well, alright folks... I'd like to wrap things up here -- firstly -- by thanking Wesley for hopping onstage and presenting some of the issues around NLP language patterns... And for being willing to offer his insight and assistance on the chat tonight. Give him a round of applause please....
KevinMit	Applause! Very good...
Tranzpupy	Hip, hip hooray!
KevinMit	I'm filing Wes' presupposition away for use later tonight.
moodswing	Clap clap clap!!!
Wild1	Claps for Wesley....let me rephrase that......
finter	Applause
Occum	Applause
Tenore	Nice going, Wes! Many thanks and good luck!
NLPerDude	THank you one and all!
Stefan	Thanks Wes, great new ways of looking at this!
KevinMit	Thanks Wes. I didn't get to see the whole chat, but I'll check the transcript. And thanks, Jonathan.
Jonathan	Cool! Thanks Wesley! Meanwhile... for those who may be interested -- I have a few announcements for the Mastery InSight Institute -- (1) Products -- NEW tapeset "Finding Your Irresistable Voice" is now available. (2) Trainings: Washington DC, New York City, Toronto, Los Angeles, & Atlanta throughout the Fall... Those trainings are 3 single-day powerhouse skills-builders.... There is a lot more info on those trainings available. And we have the next scheduled Practitioner training in October! Thanks again for coming, and we'll see you at the next ones!
IRC CHAT OVER!

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