Chat Log: NLP Practitioner Certification Trainings

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Featuring Joseph Riggio
IRC Chat Log, July 1, 1998
(Adult Language Present)

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Part 2 of our chat with Joseph Riggio (ethonics)
Jonathan	Joe Riggio runs Applied Behavioral Technologies and tends to train more advanced NLP material. We're pleased to have him join us again for PART 2... of his previous chat... & if you haven't read the previous chat with Joe -- its up on the site now! Joe? May I turn things over to you directly?
Ethonics	Sure ... why not. First off any specific questions come to mind? What I'll probably want to delve right into is the issue of where language ends...
_Marc_	I take it there is no planned topic...
Jonathan	Actually there were several topics that we broached originally in the 1st chat; please allow Joe to weave us into an extension to the previous evening!
Ethonics	There is of course something beyond language that we reference in NLP but usually do not make explicit. What I specifically want to draw attention to is the internal structure of experience itself... prior to any semantic form and beyond semantic form as well. There is a direct sensory knowing that has a form which is stored in the somatic process and is both explicit and implicit in the expressions given to it. This is what is usually bypassed when a practitioner is doing an elicitation in ordinary terms. What I am referencing here by my use of the word ordinary is when the presenting problem is taken as the lead into what is real for the individual.
Occum	The stream of consciousness?
Ethonics	Occum - it is what precedes the stream of consciousness. Someone on NLPTalk responded to a posting of mine with regard to the 'parts' thing by asking me how is it possible to address the whole system? My question is how can you do anything else? One of my missions is to do away with this who idea of parts in NLP completely!
Jonathan	I think the parts model is just that -- a "model" -- its a way of thinking. It isn't necessarily right.
_Marc_	You mean parts integration and things like that?
Ethonics	Yes the whole range of techniques that use parts as a basis.
_Marc_	Hmm...
Jonathan	Its a method of fractionation; It sounds like you wish to move more towards a holistic approach.
_Marc_	Inner conflict makes sense to me
Ethonics	Marc - Given your intro {editor's note -- the intro referenced was from before the chat officially started} it makes sense to me that it does to you.
_Marc_	It's at least a nice way of representing thing sometimes
NLPerDude	Even when the client uses the parts model herself?
Jonathan	Great question, Wesley!
Ethonics	NLPerDude: Yes, maybe even more specifically here. The issue that's raised around this is 'pacing'. I don't want to pace their sh-t. What I prefer is to recognize what it tells me about the presenter... I'm more interested in them then the presenting problem.
NLPerDude	Them = the whole person, I assume. I want to use whatever they present as the shortest way to their outcome. I don't care about parts per se.
_Marc_	Yeah - talking to a part is a quick way to get at some representation
Jonathan	Joseph, when I learned the parts model recently (at what I would call the end of the era of its wide acceptance ;) ... I find that the tail-end of working with parts (i.e. reintegration)... may have a lot in common with the approach you espouse. If you have a moment to cover this, what might be the primary differences in your view?
Ethonics	NLPerDude: In a 'clinical' setting you are the influence their responding to ... whether you like it or not what you validate becomes more 'real' to them (the client). Jonathan: What do you mean by 'reintegration' here???
NLPerDude	Well, I have been known to depart into unknown land for their sakes if it seems to be in the client's best interests
Ethonics	NLPerDude & Marc - Yes I mean the whole person, and psychotropic drugs make fast work of the symptoms but don't necessarily help the client.
_Marc_	Who said anything about drugs?
Jonathan	When working with parts (from that model), it seems that you want to validate each part and get them to negotiate with each other and then reintegrate their intentions, in a way, as a whole. So that the persons conflict is eliminated or at least ameliorated.
_Marc_	Yeah, just like all the Dilts stuff
Ethonics	NLPerDude: - I also am willing to go where it takes to get them where they are themselves most ... what I'm asking is what's the best way in ... to their experience??? Not the surface structure that the language presents but deeper???
Jonathan	That process of negotiating often leads to -- chunking up in goals -- which can integrate the parts...
Ethonics	Jonathan - a reintegration of parts is not the same as a whole wellformed structure.
Jonathan	Thats the comment I was waiting for ;)
NLPerDude	I will agree with Joe in that encouraging the notion of a whole self is one of my goals for my clients
Ethonics	What I want to do is remind them that at any point in time what they're doing or thinking, the whole of them is doing or thinking, even if it nanoseconds at a time.
_Marc_	Er.... I'm not so sure of that. what about brain hemispheres and all that?
Ethonics	When a client comes into a session or training who they are is present in what they do long before they speak. Marc - What about brain hemispheres?
_Marc_	I read somewhere that at any given point in time, only a portion of your neurons are active, like only Part of the brain is doing anything
Ioel	Will the whole self integration shall be chunked in the future or in the past to start?
Ethonics	Marc - Have you yourself ever been of two minds about something???
_Marc_	Yes
Occum	Well, Marc, I think that that part still has an affect on the rest of the system, uptake of glycogen, use of caloric energy, etc.
Ethonics	Ioel - it's a Future Present state. I'll come back to this ... remind me.
NLPerDude	Marc, there are also some pretty convincing arguments to be made that the brain functions holographically.
tranzpupy	I'm not sure it's the brain that thinks... more like channeling thought...
_Marc_	Holographically?
Ethonics	Marc - About what??? Specifically? What were the two positions???
Jonathan	Lets tighten the topic up a little and give Joe a couple more seconds to respond -- That way we don't have 4 conversations going at once ;)
_Marc_	Erm - safety and a relationship, I think
Ethonics	NLPerDude: - This is the track I'm running on ... to a large extent ... I think we're gettin' there. Pup - I agree, it's exactly how I understand the process to operate. Marc - You wanted in and out at the same time or something like that???
NLPerDude	A piece of a hologram has all of the image of the original whole contained within it as well
_Marc_	I wanted something but was too afraid to go for it
Ethonics	So what were you of two minds about to go or not to go?
_Marc_	Yeah, I guess
Ioel	I see a hologram model a a colorful fractal all around me and it moves dinamically 8)
Ethonics	Were you oscillating between the two positions, back and forth, back and forth (even if very rapidly) or did you hold them in mind simultaneously?
_Marc_	Hmm.... most of the time, one "side" seemed to override the other, except toward the end
Ethonics	One at a time ... go ... no go ... go ... again ... even if one won out ... go or no go.
_Marc_	Actually - in my thoughts it was "go!", in behaviour it was "no go!"
Ethonics	So something stopped you.
_Marc_	Right
Ethonics	Was it a 'part' of you that stopped or all of you?
_Marc_	I have no idea
Ethonics	Like did your hand commit while the rest of you stayed home?
_Marc_	It certainly seemed like some "part" was sabotaging me
Ethonics	Was it a 'part' or an oscillation of positions?
_Marc_	You lost me.
Ethonics	Did you ever get up and start going and then find yourself stopping yourself in mid ...
_Marc_	Umm, yeah. That was a different example, but yeah.
Ethonics	What I'm suggesting is that what occurs is that you are operating off of two different internal positions ... shifting ontology. These are experienced you could say in terms of the perceptual grid each constructs and filters the world through.
_Marc_	So if each position has its own perceptual grid... doesn't that support the "parts" model?
Ethonics	NO, it's diametrically opposed to the 'parts' model. There are no 'parts' only a whole experiencing the world through a differing perceptual filter system.
NLPerDude	No, it could be explained by a rapid ocillation between different positions, each expeienced extremely briefly
tranzpupy	Like looking out different windows in your house...
Ethonics	The perceptual filters I'm referring to are "set' in the body, the somatic experience. When the somatic experience changes so do the filters.
_Marc_	Same crap different jargon, Joe :)
Occum	Could you define for us somatic experience please?
_Marc_	I was just asking the EXACT same thing Occum :)
Ethonics	Does anyone recall the Castaneda books when Don Juan smacks Carlos on the back and the 'assembelage point' shifts???
Ioel, thefool, Jonathan	Yes
_Marc_, Occum, NLPerDude	No
thefool	Nice anchor hehe ..
Ethonics	What Don Juan was doing was shifting Carlos' perceptual experience to a completely different reality through the body, in simple terms a k-anchor, and yet much more.
Ioel	This is a somatic threshhold??? correct
Ethonics	Ioel: yes as I understand it. It doesn't really matter if you read it or not.
thefool	But first castenada had to learn the other perceptual fillters.. ( and they used drugs for it)
Ioel	Is there a understood limit to this thresholds models ??
NLPerDude	It seems to me that your model is denominalizing "parts"
Ethonics	I was at an RB training once. He's talking about and demonstrating motivation ... he brings this guy up on stage and gets him to get all excited about something he wants and then he talks about moving towards and moving away from and all this ... and the guy goes firing off like a rocket ... just erupting up out of himself ... you know ... then he gives everyone the exercise to do in the audience ... with each other ... and no one really gets it ... except a few people here and there ... I'm over in a corner and I'm doing this with a couple of people and their really gettin' off ... like the guy on stage ... and this kid who's dying to get this stuff ... comes over and asks what he's doing wrong ... cause it ain't workin' right ... well he's doing everything he's doing right .. what he didn't notice is that as Richard's talking to the guy on stage ... right near the end he has his hand on the the guys shoulder ... and as he's loading up the semantic system ... he just gives him the slightest little push forward ... BANG! ... immediately the whole system knows what to do ... this kid adds this in an BANG! ... BANG! ... BANG! ... he get three off in a row.
Occum	Now that sounds cool.
Jonathan	The direction in which RB is moving also shirks the parts model... and promotes something similar to what is suggested thru DHE -- inducing & getting into totally new designer holistic states from which you can do anything
_Marc_	You lost me again, I'm afraid
Occum	Tighten the rubber band, and tighten the rubber band, the FIRE THAT ANCHOR!!!
Ethonics	Marc - It's proprioceptive ... the whole systems get it ... simultaneously. When you're trying to do it to a part of the system and addressing the individual in fragementaion you get a resistence somewhere else.
haylie	This conversation was going good .......don't stop now!
Occum	Well I think I understand....
tangram	Parts implies you can't be just one part, huh?
Ethonics	This is why you often get eight gazillion 'parts' with OBJECTIONS ...
haylie	I was really getting motivated there....
Ethonics	I think F-ck 'em, throw the parts away and go behind the language that creates them.
tangram	(me too. That explains the urge to clean the house!)
Ethonics	tangram - parts = multiple, part = one ;-)
Occum	All "parts" are apart of one whole, and you want to deal with the whole, both for the sake of ecology, and effectiveness, is that right?
Ethonics	Marc - I can get that you don't ... get it yet ... but are we gettin' any closer???
_Marc_	no - you use a lot of terminology that I just don't know
Ethonics	Occum - yes. Actually I only want to work with the person once and then have them go out and live thier life.
thefool	The whole usualy is worth more than the sum of its parts...especialy when we are talking bout humanBEings..
Occum	My finger is apart of my mind/body system, but when I stroke a velvet cloth it doesn't just affect my finger, it affects my whole system.
Ethonics	Marc - help me here, where did I lose you? I'll try to backfill the gaps I left open.
Ioel	Ethonics have you ever had a time when you used educated langage and layman langauge together
_Marc_	Umm, let me think - "somatic experience", for one. There were lots of terms like that
Ethonics	Ioel - don't know, do I???
Jonathan	And having ramped up their responsiveness to the things they wanted LESS of... they were set up between what they wanted more of and what they wanted more of... adding in the little PUSH... gives the body the experience of moving towards the DESIRED goals placed in front of them. (and at least several other effects, but thats a big one)
Ethonics	Somatic refers to the body and it's processes.
tranzpupy	And proprioceptive means of, relating to, or being stimuli arising within the organism
Occum	Like somatype = bodytype. And by somatic experience you are refering to the whole experience of the person.
Ethonics	Yes so far.
Jonathan	Can we talk about propulsion systems for a moment? If it fits into where you were going?
Ethonics	Jonathan ... sure.
Jonathan	You mentioned how sparking the system into motion thru a k-anchor on the shoulder pushed their experience into motion... and having ramped up their responsiveness to the things they wanted...
tranzpupy	How 'bout the bang, Jon?
tangram	So the physical movement forward is generalized to the goal
tranzpupy	Or specified toward the goal?
Jonathan	And can you "feel that" (fire the anchor) is helping you to drive yourself forward....
tranzpupy	Kewl.
Jonathan	Joe -- I've probably unnecessarily simplified what you're getting at, -- explain as you see fit ;)
thefool	Ethonics, i.e. using a k-anchor as a more powerfull anchor?
Ethonics	It's like when you're out and you see someone you want ... badly ... first you don't think about your responding outside of think. Something inside you is moving towards the goal already ... something comes up ... or opens slightly ... in terms of possibility ... and as long as you say outside of 'think' you keep going towards the desire ... all the while you're sending signals and responding instantly to the responses. The people who I know who are the best at this can seduce someone from across a room before any words are spoken ...
Jonathan	This is certainly true ;)
Occum	I see Marcs interest has been piqued. ;-)
tranzpupy	Yeah, mine too...
_Marc_	That's not the only thing that piqued!! :)
Jonathan	There goes the PG rating!
_Marc_	Heh-heh
Ethonics	In one of his films with Michelle Pfeiffer, Robert Redford is saying goodbye to her at the airport. And he's at the bottom of an escalator as she's going up ... And there he is just standing there ... looking ... looking ... looking ... up at her ... and she just melts ...
thefool	Ethonics .. in outside of think. what exactly do you mean?
Ethonics	Marc -- in 'part' it's the language ... go back later and unpack it.
tangram	Joe, "as long as you stay outside of think" -- you mean you can be in the experience or you can be narrating about the experience, but not both?
Ethonics	Well I'm in the theater ... and all during this scene I can here people all around me melting ... he's got it ... he knows how to sent the signal in pure form ... before and beyond words ... he's accessed it in himself ... and it comes .... soaking through ... you can't help but be effected ... it's too much! Tangram - YES!!! give 'em a star! You get to choose ... have the experience or think about the experience you're not having ...
Jonathan	I "see that" as associated vs dissociated in the moment.....
_Marc_	Or, uptime or downtime
thefool	It seems to me that once a skill is thought to the superconscious (subconscious) and then the awareness just lets go of the thoghts , and let the subconscious play its roll.. then is when you get that what I think you call "out side of think" .. am I right ?? or left?
tangram	I hear it as listening to the outside world or stepping back and talking about it
Jonathan	I've used visual terms, but its experienced across all the sensory systems.
Ethonics	Jonathan - Now you're in my territory ... full sensory representation. This is what Redford's doing ... he's accessing the internal iconic experience and he IS it!
thefool	Hmmm, if you think about driving the car you can get into an accident... but if you just drive the car... then...
_Marc_	You can still get in an accident :)
Ethonics	Thefool: Let's get back to the primal drivers shall we? ... what I'm talking about is how do you know ... when you want someone ... or they want you?
tangram	This is becoming clearer to me.. so how do you encourage that kind of experience?
thefool	Hehe marc ... if you are thinking about driving your mind is too busy about thinking , than just being aware..
Occum	Right Marc, but if I had to think and analyze everthing I was doing while driving, I either get into an accident or never get anywhere.
Ethonics	What occurs inside you to let you know???
_Marc_	Whoa!!!!
tangram	Sorry, let me back up a bit. I'm trying to put together what I've seen of this chat and the last chat log. How do you encourage people (or yourself) to be more in the moment?
thefool	Well , I know when I want someone ... usualy my juises start to flow ;) .. hehe .. and .. somehow I know when some1 else wants me .. but I cannot pinpoint it ..
Ethonics	Anyone here a master seducer???
thefool	Y
_Marc_	{Whiny voice} present!
Ethonics	Thefool - just a question ... you male or female???
thefool	Male
Ethonics	So these juices are yours?
thefool	Heheh .... I meant, in sweat, blood pressure, saliva in mouth ..etc...
Ethonics	Okay yours ... it's better this way ... because then your tracking something you can count on ... next how do you know about them ... what's going on inside their body???
thefool	Mine, yes. I think that, maybe, I am aware of dialation of the pupils on the oposite sex when she is interested, or other signals, but I still think there is more to it that I know, but which I'm not aware of...
Occum	OK so how do you build guidlines and outcomes into this thing you're talking about Joe?
tranzpupy	Heat, energy rises...
Ethonics	What I want to do is have a check and match system ... something infallible ... Tranzpupy: your giving away your secrets ... ;-)
_Marc_	I usually have to rely on the way they look at me, the way they behave, etc etc
thefool	The way they bend forward... When they get the calf looks!
tangram	Bang!
haylie	That deep look into the eyes.....
Ethonics	Marc - if you wait for that it's too long already ... you need to be operating in time ... instant to instant ...
Occum	The way they scream "I want you baby!!!" ;-)
thefool	LOL occum , thats after aplaying any of the ss techniqs probably ... be4 that ..god they do play games......
Ethonics	Okay guys you've lost it ... what we're tracking here isn't metaphysical ... yet ...
_Marc_	I have NO idea what we're tracking here
Ethonics	What's going on in you is going to provoke a response in them ... and the response is all about them ... not you.
tranzpupy	Heat and energy rising...
thefool	Were tracking how to see/feel/know/hear/dig or get that the oposite sex is interested in you .. I think...
Jonathan	Right Kay, what you described is what YOU experienced
tangram	If they were interested, they would notice you. You can tell when someone has noticed you more than in passing.
_Marc_	I've never had a problem with that, thefool - my problem was always in ACTING on it. I never could :(
thefool	OK so, based on that Joe, if there is good rapport , then what ever you are experiencing they will pace you ...
Ethonics	There are subtle cues in the shifting of their experience and the question is can you respond without adding you into their experience as your having your own? I'm not talking imposition ... but a subtlety of influence.
thefool	Oh Marc :) we are in the same boat... I call it cold feet ;)
tangram	Adding you into their experience? lost me
Ethonics	What your sending out is what's generating the 'coldness' not them ...
thefool	True ethonics...
Ethonics	Let's start again ... where are you having these experiences???
Occum	By that you mean the lack of reaction or an undesirable response right?
thefool	Ones perception of an experience is actualy based on what ones think will happen
Jonathan	(too many threads folks...) Joe who do you wish to address primarily at the moment?
tangram	You mean, can you respond, ah, fluidly without breaking out to think "omigod! they're looking at me! do I have spinach in my teeth?"
Ethonics	Where are you tracking their experience???
thefool	Yup tangram ... when you stop to think you change ..
haylie	I would tell you -- lol
Ethonics	If you track the cognitive experience you're going to be thinking alot about 'being' with someone when you go home alone ...
tangram	Oh! wait a sec.. where am I tracking their experience.. where is that ongoing awareness of them.. I think I start to see
thefool	As it apears to me thinking about it, you see some1 you like , you get the spark ... the energy rises as you catch their glance and they become interested.... (the fatal moment ) you break and stop to think .omg what are they thinking of me...
Ethonics	When you track the whole movement of the experience ... in fully represented terms ... you can build a relationship so that you don't have to be starting over again every night ...
thefool	God Joe, we are actualy inducing now the feelings I get in those certain situations lol ...
Ethonics	Thefool ... turn it around ... what are you thinking about them ... who give a good f--- what they think of you??? When you think about them they feel it in their bones ... then you're irresistibly interesting ... and ...
thefool	LOL, mighty true... and here is usualy where this smelly word comes in .. BUT ... like Richard Bandler says, BUTT is where the sh*t comes from
Ethonics	You can build this up ... and up ... because this is in your control ... as you pace them like hell ...
tranzpupy	And if you don't stop too soon...
thefool	Wooohoo Joe, I'm riding your train ...
Ethonics	You move as they move ... breathe like they breath ... look at them ... Scan them ... slowly ... from bottom up ... and then ...
tranzpupy	It happens to us too, no matter where we were...
thefool	Eventually they'll pick you up instead of you having to think about a chat-up line lol
Jonathan	Yes, thefool ;)
Ethonics	Glance down at yourself ... and back up to them ... always back to them ... yep ... you won't have time to think them up ... and they'll do the talking ... ask the ladies on the line ... if this will work ... if you have an ounce of certainty ... about it.
thefool	Marc, my guess is that you are probably feeling the same cold feet I'm getting .. about will it work... but hey man, I'm actually going to kick the shit out of it... and fake it until I make it ;)
tangram	Yeah it would work
Ethonics	Tangram - thanks, they needed that. BTW - when you're doing this, is there any awareness of your parts? ;-)
thefool	The thing is , that it does not matter if itll work or not, the great thing is that the cold feet, that feeling of andrenaling cutting the breath will disapear and once that is gone ... everything will work..
tangram	Its the difference between an absentminded kiss and a really hot one
Jonathan	I like that description, tangram...
haylie	Me, too!
tranzpupy	It's the difference between paying attention... and not...
Ethonics	I really went a long way around things there ... but the point is that you can take control ... of your internal experience ... and begin to match it with what is true of you at your best ...
thefool	Any awarness of my parts?? hell , ill be aware of my whole body cept my thoghts... cept if they are about what will happen at night , in my bed , with the babe..
tranzpupy	See? we gals always want you paying for something!
tangram	But you notice kisses are ten times better when you're paying attention
tranzpupy	Even if it's just attention
Ethonics	Thefool - just then you lost it ... the certainty ... you left the moment ... the heat and tension of it ... And you went somewhere else ... before you get back she'll find someone more interesting ...
haylie	The smooth feeling of lips touching
Ethonics	You have to build the discipline to stick with it ...
thefool	OK , OK , got that one ... I stand corrected.. and learn .. :)
Ethonics	The only thing you have to track is ... now and then ... update ... and do it again ... What I've found in the NLP community at large is that very few can build it and hold it ...
thefool	Well I get a lot of plays .standing behind the bar.... :)
Ethonics	They let it go as soon as the tension is buzzing and it dissipates.
tranzpupy	Any advice on getting better at building and holding...
thefool	So the main idea is holding it .. and intesifing it ..as we go ...
Ethonics	Let's go back to basics ... First you have to learn what you're experiencing in the body ... your own ... when you're at your best ... what do you do ... how are you? There will be subtle postures and gestures that are uniquely your own ...
thefool	That reminds me of a lot of experiences which tension built between a female and myself...but then after one flirt.. the tension is dried out and all the magic disappears and the next time we meet... they say " but I wanted you as a friend , no more.." ...
haylie	Hehehehehe
Ethonics	This is the magic ... the 'lighting from the fingertips" so to speak ...
Jonathan	How do you believe this 'lighting from the fingertips" informs and leads into the future of using the NLP(tm) model?
Ethonics	Thefool - as long as you continue to track what won't work ... so you can remain clever ... it won't ...
thefool	Hey ethonics maybe your lightning comes from your fingers.. mine come from my eyes ;) yes... I'm starting to think back now actually ... all the tracking begins here... coolio
haylie	Mine 2 like that one
Ethonics	It's the ability to come back to oneself and stay there ... regardless of the situation or circumstance.
thefool	Still it makes me wonder ... how on irc, it happens faster... I was trying to find what is that I do on irc. and how do I import it to real life.
Ethonics	The model as it stands is moving to a series of nifty tricks and techniques, maybe they'll last and maybe they won't.
thefool	Now for once the sentece ... " what the f___ does it matter what they will think if..... " makes sence to me hehehe..
Jonathan	Ahhhh! Here we go into the gold....
Ethonics	What RB is moving to is a 'new' model, DHE, and beyond, so that he can reaccess the whole form.
thefool	That is y those who think of themselves as donjuans... and actualy play that part and play with females .. have females falling for them all the time..
Ethonics	John Grinder is talking about 'new code', the stucture of 'personal genius'. As I understand it the premise is multiple perspectives in perceptual awareness.
Jonathan	I agree with you there, Joe!
Occum	Like my friend the shark, who believes (I mean really truly believes) that every woman wants him.
thefool	There you go , what a NON limiTINg belife.. ehehe
Ethonics	What I'm leading the attention to here is the ability to direct the internal experience in a way that suits you ... outside of the external stimulus present.
thefool	Well , Joe by doing that you actualy creat the external stimulus...
Ethonics	If what determines who you are is the external stimulus then you are at the mercy of the context you find yourself in.
thefool	like saing life is happening to u.. instead of .. I make my life happen
Ethonics	What I think you're doing is operating as the 'strange attractor' in the system and causing it to conform to you. This is a constant in an changing system. You set the internal structure and filter your experience through this ... A 'strange attractor' is a term from Chaos Theory. It is the constant in a system which provides the basis for the systems responses in pattern.
thefool	But that is actualy what happens with perception allways... when you are happy , you percive your experiences as bright, when you are sad you percive your experiences as dark ... i.e. optimism and pesimism
tangram	You pick the frame for the picture
Ethonics	What I'm directing your attention to ... is what gets your attention. When does 'it' take over and you find you've lost yourself in 'it'? Again, thefool, you give us the code, what I'm asking is what comes before light or dark for you ...
thefool	I know what breaks me out of it , and that is when I start thinking about it ...
Jonathan	When do I fully externalize? Is that the same thing?
Ethonics	You want to set the terms not respond to them ... this is the internal structure I mentioned at the beginning of the chat.
thefool	My choice to feel good or bad. .. I choose how to feel...and by that I frame my perception ...
_Marc_	back
Ethonics	Before you 'frame' it ... go before the frame ... then check the internal response position ... I'm suggesting you check the internal rhythmic response ...
thefool	The framing is a byprodoct of me choosing the way I want to feel ... I'm lost in pools of logic now .. doooh
Ethonics	Probably at or just below the center of your body. Stop for one minute and try it on ... check the internal experience as your sitting there ... what's the internal pace like???
tangram	I can think of things that make me break out of 'it', but it's hard to notice what gets me into 'it'.
Ethonics	Tangram - the specifics I'm referencing are about thefool, yours will be different. This is another thing about the 'future' model, it must be reorganized around subjective experience, not one size fits all techniques.
thefool	Well if we take certain situations, as we were talking about spotting a bird in a crowd and making her interested in me .. so .. the drive force is my wantingness to have fun and enjoy .. then , I see the birds that match my lists of likes ... and fantasies.. then there is the glance catch .. the subtle smiles..
Ethonics	Thefool - you can tell me you don't want to participate, but I asked you about now, if this is too much ... the tension let me know, I'll stop.
thefool	No cool, plz continue dude .. I'm realizing things bout myself... I never stop this kinds of enlightment in the middle .. OK so, where were we?
Ethonics	This stuff is all in-time ... if you do it anyother way you're stepping outside of experience. Thefool - what's you're internal experience of you body like RIGHT NOW, in terms of the internal rhythm and pace???
thefool	Yes, I know ...what I was describing is an actual experience I had , and I was actually going through it. Well now ... I'm like mighty interested in the brains, got some poundings in the mid of the body around solarplexus ..
Ethonics	This is an NLP bastardization ... "go and think of a time ..." which means go META, "don't have the experience you're really having right now."
thefool	Like standing in a short but tight tunnel with a beutiful light at the near eand
Ethonics	Thefool - perfect, set the visual aside for a moment, at least consciously,
thefool	Done. So OK , the smiles on my face again ...
Ethonics	You can just let it drift in and out as you continue ... but you don't need to report on it.
thefool	OK
Ethonics	The pounding ... what's the rhythm??? Once a minute ... twice???
thefool	I got the smile, got the some tingling, got the looks .. Well its like waves... its like ... doooh .. ehehhe cannot say
Ethonics	And in-between the rhythm, what is there???
thefool	Well I get the feeling of my body there .. as a center of the universe for me at the moment ..
Ethonics	It's in the space between the rhythm that it's possible that you'll find a something of yourself that you've left out before. Does the internal experience go quiet inside the rhythm???
thefool	I'm having a tiny whiny problem with the rhythm word... The word rhythm is actualy making me think out of .... Look for a rhythm .. which then I lose the experience I was in ..
Ethonics	Okay ... change it to indicate the space inbetween the pounds ... do you notice your facial muscles relaxing
thefool	Not really ... I notice though that my eyes wander to the floor, aimlessly kind of wander... like a shy little kid.. yes that's the one..
Ethonics	Fine ... I want you to take one moment and track the response through the body process ... which then creates a response somewhere else ... Do it again and as you do blink and open your eyes slowly ... where are they aimed???
thefool	Well they go right low -- my right.
Ethonics	And the unconnected repsonse??? Where is it???
thefool	OK then , it starts in the mid of the chest . a fear like feeling .. you know , the one you get when you strt to think .. and then you start to think , and be4 you notice you are stuck in a magic circle... of scaring urslef about what otther will think..
Ethonics	Thefool - are you any quieter inside???
thefool	On the contrary ... this is the point where I lost it..
Ethonics	Like this before you run the 'fear' program??? Does it go quiet just before you talk to yourself???
thefool	There is something there...
Ethonics	Okay ... go back and add this in ... When are you at your best???
thefool	But I cant track it down ..
Ethonics	Just answer quickly as you can ...
thefool	After laughing
Ethonics	When are you at your best?
thefool	After a funny movie
Ethonics	Laughing?
thefool	Mighty energized
Ethonics	Got it ...
thefool	Yes ... thats is when I'm on my best.. after making my friends laugh ...
Ethonics	NOW add that it to the space before the 'fear' sounds off ...
thefool	OK so I'm back on track ... eyes fall, eyes get up...
Ethonics	Go back and hold it ... you're on track before you get off.
thefool	OK so I need an anchor for that one ?... kick it before even I think of the thought of the fear program...
Ethonics	When the eyes go up ... there's a point there ... can you lock onto it ... for a second or less?
thefool	Yes, warmth up my solarplexus.. I can actualy put it on pause and stay with that feeling .. which is quite GREAT heheh ;P
Ethonics	Throw your whole mind to that point, just for a second ... no more ... and then notice without any meaning attached what is occuring in your solar plexus ... What's occuring in the solar plexus? I said one second ... no more.
thefool	Like a warmth ball filling in the cold blue ball that .. actualy never came in ... now. LOL! God, this makes my logicmind laugh like mad ... hehe
Ethonics	NOW add in the visual you put aside before and do it in full color! Whats the color ... quickly ... no more ... thinking ... just let it fill out of you ...
thefool	Well, got reds in there... warm colors..
Ethonics	And ...
thefool	Well I dont see the tunnel no more..
Ethonics	Now back to the point and ... quickly ...
thefool	I see a red ball in my chest covering a blue ice peg... that is there no more ..
Ethonics	Your attention on the warming and filling of the solar plexus ...
thefool	GOD I even got the whole idea of what you are doing as we are doing it...
Ethonics	By Gawd, I think you've got it ... just color ... warm, filling in the colors ... and this is the immediate experience outside of think ...
tranzpupy	Wow
Ethonics	This was for 'them' not you ... you just no more ... thinking ... about feeling full and warm ... all over ... even when you can do it again ...
Jonathan	Very nice!
Ethonics	You will find that it's possible in ordinary time ...
thefool	And as I ran it faster and faster.. I tried another slow run , and at the usual moment of what used to be there and is no more.. I took this great deep breath in...
Ethonics	Thanks fool no more ... I think this might be a good place to open it up to some finishing questions ...
thefool	That was one great double-teaching ... triple-teaching actually, I learned 3 things which I realize now... and for that Joe I'll be forever in your gratitude.. mighty thanks man ... !!!
_Marc_	Okay. Can you sum up your Whole Point?
Ethonics	Marc - no I'm not capable, I can not unpack twelve years of my life's work in a minute or two. I hope that the whole is representative and complete unto itself. If there's a specific question I'll do my best to answer ...
thefool	Marc: read the log ... and just run the proces on yourself.
Jonathan	I have a question -- Do you know when & where your upcoming trainings are going to be
_Marc_	What were you trying to tell us about parts and all that?
Ethonics	Fool no more ... your welcome ... it was you who done it ... we were just the observers ... although well skilled observers at that :-)
thefool	heheh Joe ..
Ethonics	Marc - with all due respect to fool no more ... DON'T run the process it was designed to him ... You operate on different frequency ...
_Marc_	Right
thefool	Joe... what I mean .. was in actualy ... the idea... the way .. the leadings..
thefool	The content fills itslef with every diferent person ...
Ethonics	What I was doing was demonstrating an intime intervention ... on line ... bypassing ordinary perception and limiting ... the limiting factor ... outside of the cognitive process ... here there are no 'parts' .... just the whole person ... in experience of themselves.
_Marc_	Oh, I thought you were talking a lot of Theory -- or at least you were before
Ethonics	Jonathan ... Thanks for the intro to our "stuff". My recommendation to anyone interested is to drop by our website at http://www.appliednlp.com and check the calendar.
Jonathan	Sure! My pleasure.
thefool	Hehe marc I was swooshing with theories when Joe said that is the code and made me go in
tranzpupy	That was really cool!
Ethonics	We'll be in California, London, and Sao Paulo soon ... We also just put up an open forum where we'll be tracking threads addressing these kinds of topics ... again you can get there from the website.
Jonathan	Again, check out Applied Behavioral Technologies for those trainings. Which events have available seats still?
thefool	London! Mighty cool! I hope I get enough money before then.
tranzpupy	I just signed up for the forum today... it's a cool forum...
Jonathan	Everyone should sign up there and visit with other NLP'ers there too! I'd like to ask all of YOU to give each other a pat on the back as well... for contributing and exploring and being willing to share your thoughts with the group... and especially to the select few who opened up with Joe and dealt with their issues more directly!
thefool	I'm hugging the stuffing outta jonathan!
Ethonics	These training are small - 8-12 people max ... and we work personally with everyone ... so far the next open seats are in August and October.
Jonathan	While we're REALLY grateful to Joe and to the upcoming chat-featured trainers.. (including NLPerDude this Sunday!).... Its the GROUP that makes these chats the magic that they are.... So please, after giving yourselves the appreciation you deserve... can I ask for a round of thanks and applause to Joseph Riggio -- He's been more than generous TWICE now with his time and energy! Thank you Joe!
Ethonics	Thanks again everone, and Marc, if you'd like email me and I'll do by best to untheorize it with you. We can even do a chat live on the forum site some night with you in center stage ... you'll let me know.
tranzpupy	Yeah, RAH!
tangram	Thanks!
thefool	Yeeehaaa for Joseph
haylie	Thanks :)
NLPerDude	Thanks and applause
_Stile_	Applause
Wild1	What is the price range Joe?
Ethonics	The trainings are around $900 USD for four days ... a little less if paid in advance ... drop me an email if you're interested and I'll get you info.
haylie	I'm whistling!
_Marc_	What I need most right now, Joe, is actual changework...
Ethonics	Marc - drop me an email if your interested and we'll do the work ...
_Marc_	Online?
Ethonics	Marc - NO privately, one to one. You can call me at 800.405.6555 or 201.512.8772 out of the US. I do work with clients internationally.
Jonathan	Folks - SIGN UP NOW while you can to Joe's trainings, before the seats are gone! THANK YOU Joe... THANK YOU everyone else -- this was GREAT!
NLPerDude	I really got a great deal out of tonight, Joe. I never though of postulating ocillations of attention/state instead of parts.
Ethonics	Jonathan and all ...THANKS AGAIN for the evening, your time, your attention and your input!!!
Jonathan	My pleasure! Your website looks great, by the way, Joseph... people can visit you and find out more about your trainings at http://www.appliednlp.com. If you'll allow me to close with a couple of announcements, we also have another CHAT to announce... On Sunday 7/5 -- at 7pm EDT, Wesley Anderson (NLPerDude) will be joining us here in THIS channel for a chat on "NLP Language Patterns, Beyond the Basics." So make sure to remember to attend! And we have more trainers lined up for down the line as well! Including several Master Trainers whose names you'd recognize in a heartbeat! I'm really looking forward to Wesley's chat -- he's very fluid with language patterns -- and I know he's getting primed up for it as well! All these chats will be on the site shortly after the chats are done! Goodnight folks!
IRC CHAT OVER!

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