Joseph Riggio & Mythoself (part 2) - NLP chat
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IRC Chat Log, July 1, 1998
(Adult Language Present)
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| Jonathan | Joe Riggio runs Applied Behavioral Technologies and tends to train more advanced NLP material. We're pleased to have him join us again for PART 2... of his previous chat... & if you haven't read the previous chat with Joe -- its up on the site now! Joe? May I turn things over to you directly? |
| Ethonics | Sure ... why not. First off any specific questions come to mind? What I'll probably want to delve right into is the issue of where language ends... |
| Marc | I take it there is no planned topic... |
| Jonathan | Actually there were several topics that we broached originally in the 1st chat; please allow Joe to weave us into an extension to the previous evening! |
| Ethonics | There is of course something beyond language that we reference in NLP but usually do not make explicit. What I specifically want to draw attention to is the internal structure of experience itself... prior to any semantic form and beyond semantic form as well. There is a direct sensory knowing that has a form which is stored in the somatic process and is both explicit and implicit in the expressions given to it. This is what is usually bypassed when a practitioner is doing an elicitation in ordinary terms. What I am referencing here by my use of the word ordinary is when the presenting problem is taken as the lead into what is real for the individual. |
| Occum | The stream of consciousness? |
| Ethonics | Occum - it is what precedes the stream of consciousness. Someone on NLPTalk responded to a posting of mine with regard to the 'parts' thing by asking me how is it possible to address the whole system? My question is how can you do anything else? One of my missions is to do away with this who idea of parts in NLP completely! |
| Jonathan | I think the parts model is just that -- a "model" -- its a way of thinking. It isn't necessarily right. |
| Marc | You mean parts integration and things like that? |
| Ethonics | Yes the whole range of techniques that use parts as a basis. |
| Marc | Hmm... |
| Jonathan | Its a method of fractionation; It sounds like you wish to move more towards a holistic approach. |
| Marc | Inner conflict makes sense to me |
| Ethonics | Marc - Given your intro {editor's note -- the intro referenced was from before the chat officially started} it makes sense to me that it does to you. |
| Marc | It's at least a nice way of representing thing sometimes |
| NLPerDude | Even when the client uses the parts model herself? |
| Jonathan | Great question, Wesley! |
| Ethonics | NLPerDude: Yes, maybe even more specifically here. The issue that's raised around this is 'pacing'. I don't want to pace their sh-t. What I prefer is to recognize what it tells me about the presenter... I'm more interested in them then the presenting problem. |
| NLPerDude | Them = the whole person, I assume. I want to use whatever they present as the shortest way to their outcome. I don't care about parts per se. |
| Marc | Yeah - talking to a part is a quick way to get at some representation |
| Jonathan | Joseph, when I learned the parts model recently (at what I would call the end of the era of its wide acceptance ;) ... I find that the tail-end of working with parts (i.e. reintegration)... may have a lot in common with the approach you espouse. If you have a moment to cover this, what might be the primary differences in your view? |
| Ethonics | NLPerDude: In a 'clinical' setting you are the influence their responding to ... whether you like it or not what you validate becomes more 'real' to them (the client). Jonathan: What do you mean by 'reintegration' here??? |
| NLPerDude | Well, I have been known to depart into unknown land for their sakes if it seems to be in the client's best interests |
| Ethonics | NLPerDude & Marc - Yes I mean the whole person, and psychotropic drugs make fast work of the symptoms but don't necessarily help the client. |
| Marc | Who said anything about drugs? |
| Jonathan | When working with parts (from that model), it seems that you want to validate each part and get them to negotiate with each other and then reintegrate their intentions, in a way, as a whole. So that the persons conflict is eliminated or at least ameliorated. |
| Marc | Yeah, just like all the Dilts stuff |
| Ethonics | NLPerDude: - I also am willing to go where it takes to get them where they are themselves most ... what I'm asking is what's the best way in ... to their experience??? Not the surface structure that the language presents but deeper??? |
| Jonathan | That process of negotiating often leads to -- chunking up in goals -- which can integrate the parts... |
| Ethonics | Jonathan - a reintegration of parts is not the same as a whole wellformed structure. |
| Jonathan | Thats the comment I was waiting for ;) |
| NLPerDude | I will agree with Joe in that encouraging the notion of a whole self is one of my goals for my clients |
| Ethonics | What I want to do is remind them that at any point in time what they're doing or thinking, the whole of them is doing or thinking, even if it nanoseconds at a time. |
| Marc | Er.... I'm not so sure of that. what about brain hemispheres and all that? |
| Ethonics | When a client comes into a session or training who they are is present in what they do long before they speak. Marc - What about brain hemispheres? |
| Marc | I read somewhere that at any given point in time, only a portion of your neurons are active, like only Part of the brain is doing anything |
| Ioel | Will the whole self integration shall be chunked in the future or in the past to start? |
| Ethonics | Marc - Have you yourself ever been of two minds about something??? |
| Marc | Yes |
| Occum | Well, Marc, I think that that part still has an affect on the rest of the system, uptake of glycogen, use of caloric energy, etc. |
| Ethonics | Ioel - it's a Future Present state. I'll come back to this ... remind me. |
| NLPerDude | Marc, there are also some pretty convincing arguments to be made that the brain functions holographically. |
| tranzpupy | I'm not sure it's the *brain* that thinks... more like channeling thought... |
| Marc | Holographically? |
| Ethonics | Marc - About what??? Specifically? What were the two positions??? |
| Jonathan | Lets tighten the topic up a little and give Joe a couple more seconds to respond -- That way we don't have 4 conversations going at once ;) |
| Marc | Erm - safety and a relationship, I think |
| Ethonics | NLPerDude: - This is the track I'm running on ... to a large extent ... I think we're gettin' there. Pup - I agree, it's exactly how I understand the process to operate. Marc - You wanted in and out at the same time or something like that??? |
| NLPerDude | A piece of a hologram has all of the image of the original whole contained within it as well |
| Marc | I wanted something but was too afraid to go for it |
| Ethonics | So what were you of two minds about to go or not to go? |
| Marc | Yeah, I guess |
| Ioel | I see a hologram model a a colorful fractal all around me and it moves dinamically 8) |
| Ethonics | Were you oscillating between the two positions, back and forth, back and forth (even if very rapidly) or did you hold them in mind simultaneously? |
| Marc | Hmm.... most of the time, one "side" seemed to override the other, except toward the end |
| Ethonics | One at a time ... go ... no go ... go ... again ... even if one won out ... go or no go. |
| Marc | Actually - in my thoughts it was "go!", in behaviour it was "no go!" |
| Ethonics | So something stopped you. |
| Marc | Right |
| Ethonics | Was it a 'part' of you that stopped or all of you? |
| Marc | I have no idea |
| Ethonics | Like did your hand commit while the rest of you stayed home? |
| Marc | It certainly seemed like some "part" was sabotaging me |
| Ethonics | Was it a 'part' or an oscillation of positions? |
| Marc | You lost me. |
| Ethonics | Did you ever get up and start going and then find yourself stopping yourself in mid ... |
| Marc | Umm, yeah. That was a different example, but yeah. |
| Ethonics | What I'm suggesting is that what occurs is that you are operating off of two different internal positions ... shifting ontology. These are experienced you could say in terms of the perceptual grid each constructs and filters the world through. |
| Marc | So if each position has its own perceptual grid... doesn't that support the "parts" model? |
| Ethonics | NO, it's diametrically opposed to the 'parts' model. There are no 'parts' only a whole experiencing the world through a differing perceptual filter system. |
| NLPerDude | No, it could be explained by a rapid ocillation between different positions, each expeienced extremely briefly |
| tranzpupy | Like looking out different windows in your house... |
| Ethonics | The perceptual filters I'm referring to are "set' in the body, the somatic experience. When the somatic experience changes so do the filters. |
| Marc | Same crap different jargon, Joe :) |
| Occum | Could you define for us somatic experience please? |
| Marc | I was just asking the EXACT same thing Occum :) |
| Ethonics | Does anyone recall the Castaneda books when Don Juan smacks Carlos on the back and the 'assembelage point' shifts??? |
| Ioel, thefool, Jonathan | Yes |
| Marc, Occum, NLPerDude | No |
| thefool | Nice anchor hehe .. |
| Ethonics | What Don Juan was doing was shifting Carlos' perceptual experience to a completely different reality through the body, in simple terms a k-anchor, and yet much more. |
| Ioel | This is a somatic threshhold??? correct |
| Ethonics | Ioel: yes as I understand it. It doesn't really matter if you read it or not. |
| thefool | But first castenada had to learn the other perceptual fillters.. ( and they used drugs for it) |
| Ioel | Is there a understood limit to this thresholds models ?? |
| NLPerDude | It seems to me that your model is denominalizing "parts" |
| Ethonics | I was at an RB training once. He's talking about and demonstrating motivation ... he brings this guy up on stage and gets him to get all excited about something he wants and then he talks about moving towards and moving away from and all this ... and the guy goes firing off like a rocket ... just erupting up out of himself ... you know ... then he gives everyone the exercise to do in the audience ... with each other ... and no one really gets it ... except a few people here and there ... I'm over in a corner and I'm doing this with a couple of people and their really gettin' off ... like the guy on stage ... and this kid who's dying to get this stuff ... comes over and asks what he's doing wrong ... cause it ain't workin' right ... well he's doing everything he's doing right .. what he didn't notice is that as Richard's talking to the guy on stage ... right near the end he has his hand on the the guys shoulder ... and as he's loading up the semantic system ... he just gives him the slightest little push forward ... BANG! ... immediately the whole system knows what to do ... this kid adds this in an BANG! ... BANG! ... BANG! ... he get three off in a row. |
| Occum | Now that sounds cool. |
| Jonathan | The direction in which RB is moving also shirks the parts model... and promotes something similar to what is suggested thru DHE -- inducing & getting into totally new designer holistic states from which you can do anything |
| Marc | You lost me again, I'm afraid |
| Occum | Tighten the rubber band, and tighten the rubber band, the FIRE THAT ANCHOR!!! |
| Ethonics | Marc - It's proprioceptive ... the whole systems get it ... simultaneously. When you're trying to do it to a part of the system and addressing the individual in fragementaion you get a resistence somewhere else. |
| haylie | This conversation was going good .......don't stop now! |
| Occum | Well I think I understand.... |
| tangram | Parts implies you can't be just one part, huh? |
| Ethonics | This is why you often get eight gazillion 'parts' with OBJECTIONS ... |
| haylie | I was really getting motivated there.... |
| Ethonics | I think F-ck 'em, throw the parts away and go behind the language that creates them. |
| tangram | (me too. That explains the urge to clean the house!) |
| Ethonics | tangram - parts = multiple, part = one ;-) |
| Occum | All "parts" are apart of one whole, and you want to deal with the whole, both for the sake of ecology, and effectiveness, is that right? |
| Ethonics | Marc - I can get that you don't ... get it yet ... but are we gettin' any closer??? |
| Marc | no - you use a lot of terminology that I just don't know |
| Ethonics | Occum - yes. Actually I only want to work with the person once and then have them go out and live thier life. |
| thefool | The whole usualy is worth more than the sum of its parts...especialy when we are talking bout humanBEings.. |
| Occum | My finger is apart of my mind/body system, but when I stroke a velvet cloth it doesn't just affect my finger, it affects my whole system. |
| Ethonics | Marc - help me here, where did I lose you? I'll try to backfill the gaps I left open. |
| Ioel | Ethonics have you ever had a time when you used educated langage and layman langauge together |
| Marc | Umm, let me think - "somatic experience", for one. There were lots of terms like that |
| Ethonics | Ioel - don't know, do I??? |
| Jonathan | And having ramped up their responsiveness to the things they wanted LESS of... they were set up between what they wanted more of and what they wanted more of... adding in the little PUSH... gives the body the experience of moving towards the DESIRED goals placed in front of them. (and at least several other effects, but thats a big one) |
| Ethonics | Somatic refers to the body and it's processes. |
| tranzpupy | And proprioceptive means of, relating to, or being stimuli arising within the organism |
| Occum | Like somatype = bodytype. And by somatic experience you are refering to the whole experience of the person. |
| Ethonics | Yes so far. |
| Jonathan | Can we talk about propulsion systems for a moment? If it fits into where you were going? |
| Ethonics | Jonathan ... sure. |
| Jonathan | You mentioned how sparking the system into motion thru a k-anchor on the shoulder pushed their experience into motion... and having ramped up their responsiveness to the things they wanted... |
| tranzpupy | How 'bout the *bang*, Jon? |
| tangram | So the physical movement forward is generalized to the goal |
| tranzpupy | Or specified toward the goal? |
| Jonathan | And can you "feel that" (fire the anchor) is helping you to drive yourself forward.... |
| tranzpupy | Kewl. |
| Jonathan | Joe -- I've probably unnecessarily simplified what you're getting at, -- explain as you see fit ;) |
| thefool | Ethonics, i.e. using a k-anchor as a more powerfull anchor? |
| Ethonics | It's like when you're out and you see someone you want ... badly ... first you don't think about your responding outside of think. Something inside you is moving towards the goal already ... something comes up ... or opens slightly ... in terms of possibility ... and as long as you say outside of 'think' you keep going towards the desire ... all the while you're sending signals and responding instantly to the responses. The people who I know who are the best at this can seduce someone from across a room before any words are spoken ... |
| Jonathan | This is certainly true ;) |
| Occum | I see Marcs interest has been piqued. ;-) |
| tranzpupy | Yeah, mine too... |
| Marc | That's not the only thing that piqued!! :) |
| Jonathan | There goes the PG rating! |
| Marc | Heh-heh |
| Ethonics | In one of his films with Michelle Pfeiffer, Robert Redford is saying goodbye to her at the airport. And he's at the bottom of an escalator as she's going up ... And there he is just standing there ... looking ... looking ... looking ... up at her ... and she just melts ... |
| thefool | Ethonics .. in outside of think. what exactly do you mean? |
| Ethonics | Marc -- in 'part' it's the language ... go back later and unpack it. |
| tangram | Joe, "as long as you stay outside of think" -- you mean you can be in the experience or you can be narrating about the experience, but not both? |
| Ethonics | Well I'm in the theater ... and all during this scene I can here people all around me melting ... he's got it ... he knows how to sent the signal in pure form ... before and beyond words ... he's accessed it in himself ... and it comes .... soaking through ... you can't help but be effected ... it's too much! Tangram - YES!!! give 'em a star! You get to choose ... have the experience or think about the experience you're not having ... |
| Jonathan | I "see that" as associated vs dissociated in the moment..... |
| Marc | Or, uptime or downtime |
| thefool | It seems to me that once a skill is thought to the superconscious (subconscious) and then the awareness just lets go of the thoghts , and let the subconscious play its roll.. then is when you get that what I think you call "out side of think" .. am I right ?? or left? |
| tangram | I hear it as listening to the outside world or stepping back and talking about it |
| Jonathan | I've used visual terms, but its experienced across all the sensory systems. |
| Ethonics | Jonathan - Now you're in my territory ... full sensory representation. This is what Redford's doing ... he's accessing the internal iconic experience and he IS it! |
| thefool | Hmmm, if you think about driving the car you can get into an accident... but if you just drive the car... then... |
| Marc | You can still get in an accident :) |
| Ethonics | Thefool: Let's get back to the primal drivers shall we? ... what I'm talking about is how do you know ... when you want someone ... or they want you? |
| tangram | This is becoming clearer to me.. so how do you encourage that kind of experience? |
| thefool | Hehe marc ... if you are thinking about driving your mind is too busy about thinking , than just being aware.. |
| Occum | Right Marc, but if I had to think and analyze everthing I was doing while driving, I either get into an accident or never get anywhere. |
| Ethonics | What occurs inside you to let you know??? |
| Marc | Whoa!!!! |
| tangram | Sorry, let me back up a bit. I'm trying to put together what I've seen of this chat and the last chat log. How do you encourage people (or yourself) to be more in the moment? |
| thefool | Well , I know when I want someone ... usualy my juises start to flow ;) .. hehe .. and .. somehow I know when some1 else wants me .. but I cannot pinpoint it .. |
| Ethonics | Anyone here a master seducer??? |
| thefool | Y |
| Marc | {Whiny voice} present! |
| Ethonics | Thefool - just a question ... you male or female??? |
| thefool | Male |
| Ethonics | So these juices are yours? |
| thefool | Heheh .... I meant, in sweat, blood pressure, saliva in mouth ..etc... |
| Ethonics | Okay yours ... it's better this way ... because then your tracking something you can count on ... next how do you know about them ... what's going on inside their body??? |
| thefool | Mine, yes. I think that, maybe, I am aware of dialation of the pupils on the oposite sex when she is interested, or other signals, but I still think there is more to it that I know, but which I'm not aware of... |
| Occum | OK so how do you build guidlines and outcomes into this thing you're talking about Joe? |
| tranzpupy | Heat, energy rises... |
| Ethonics | What I want to do is have a check and match system ... something infallible ... Tranzpupy: your giving away your secrets ... ;-) |
| Marc | I usually have to rely on the way they look at me, the way they behave, etc etc |
| thefool | The way they bend forward... When they get the calf looks! |
| tangram | Bang! |
| haylie | That deep look into the eyes..... |
| Ethonics | Marc - if you wait for that it's too long already ... you need to be operating in time ... instant to instant ... |
| Occum | The way they scream "I want you baby!!!" ;-) |
| thefool | LOL occum , thats after aplaying any of the ss techniqs probably ... be4 that ..god they do play games...... |
| Ethonics | Okay guys you've lost it ... what we're tracking here isn't metaphysical ... yet ... |
| Marc | I have NO idea what we're tracking here |
| Ethonics | What's going on in you is going to provoke a response in them ... and the response is all about them ... not you. |
| tranzpupy | Heat and energy rising... |
| thefool | Were tracking how to see/feel/know/hear/dig or get that the oposite sex is interested in you .. I think... |
| Jonathan | Right Kay, what you described is what YOU experienced |
| tangram | If they were interested, they would notice you. You can tell when someone has noticed you more than in passing. |
| Marc | I've never had a problem with that, thefool - my problem was always in ACTING on it. I never could :( |
| thefool | OK so, based on that Joe, if there is good rapport , then what ever you are experiencing they will pace you ... |
| Ethonics | There are subtle cues in the shifting of their experience and the question is can you respond without adding you into their experience as your having your own? I'm not talking imposition ... but a subtlety of influence. |
| thefool | Oh Marc :) we are in the same boat... I call it cold feet ;) |
| tangram | Adding you into their experience? lost me |
| Ethonics | What your sending out is what's generating the 'coldness' not them ... |
| thefool | True ethonics... |
| Ethonics | Let's start again ... where are you having these experiences??? |
| Occum | By that you mean the lack of reaction or an undesirable response right? |
| thefool | Ones perception of an experience is actualy based on what ones think will happen |
| Jonathan | (too many threads folks...) Joe who do you wish to address primarily at the moment? |
| tangram | You mean, can you respond, ah, fluidly without breaking out to think "omigod! they're looking at me! do I have spinach in my teeth?" |
| Ethonics | Where are you tracking their experience??? |
| thefool | Yup tangram ... when you stop to think you change .. |
| haylie | I would tell you -- lol |
| Ethonics | If you track the cognitive experience you're going to be thinking alot about 'being' with someone when you go home alone ... |
| tangram | Oh! wait a sec.. where am I tracking their experience.. where is that ongoing awareness of them.. I think I start to see |
| thefool | As it apears to me thinking about it, you see some1 you like , you get the spark ... the energy rises as you catch their glance and they become interested.... (the fatal moment ) you break and stop to think .omg what are they thinking of me... |
| Ethonics | When you track the whole movement of the experience ... in fully represented terms ... you can build a relationship so that you don't have to be starting over again every night ... |
| thefool | God Joe, we are actualy inducing now the feelings I get in those certain situations lol ... |
| Ethonics | Thefool ... turn it around ... what are you thinking about them ... who give a good f--- what they think of you??? When you think about them they feel it in their bones ... then you're irresistibly interesting ... and ... |
| thefool | LOL, mighty true... and here is usualy where this smelly word comes in .. BUT ... like Richard Bandler says, BUTT is where the sh*t comes from |
| Ethonics | You can build this up ... and up ... because this is in your control ... as you pace them like hell ... |
| tranzpupy | And if you don't *stop* too soon... |
| thefool | Wooohoo Joe, I'm riding your train ... |
| Ethonics | You move as they move ... breathe like they breath ... look at them ... Scan them ... slowly ... from bottom up ... and then ... |
| tranzpupy | It happens to us too, no matter where we were... |
| thefool | Eventually they'll pick you up instead of you having to think about a chat-up line lol |
| Jonathan | Yes, thefool ;) |
| Ethonics | Glance down at yourself ... and back up to them ... always back to them ... yep ... you won't have time to think them up ... and they'll do the talking ... ask the ladies on the line ... if this will work ... if you have an ounce of certainty ... about it. |
| thefool | Marc, my guess is that you are probably feeling the same cold feet I'm getting .. about will it work... but hey man, I'm actually going to kick the shit out of it... and fake it until I make it ;) |
| tangram | Yeah it would work |
| Ethonics | Tangram - thanks, they needed that. BTW - when you're doing this, is there any awareness of your parts? ;-) |
| thefool | The thing is , that it does not matter if itll work or not, the great thing is that the cold feet, that feeling of andrenaling cutting the breath will disapear and once that is gone ... everything will work.. |
| tangram | Its the difference between an absentminded kiss and a really hot one |
| Jonathan | I like that description, tangram... |
| haylie | Me, too! |
| tranzpupy | It's the difference between paying attention... and not... |
| Ethonics | I really went a long way around things there ... but the point is that you can take control ... of your internal experience ... and begin to match it with what is true of you at your best ... |
| thefool | Any awarness of my parts?? hell , ill be aware of my whole body cept my thoghts... cept if they are about what will happen at night , in my bed , with the babe.. |
| tranzpupy | See? we gals always want you *paying* for something! |
| tangram | But you notice kisses are ten times better when you're paying attention |
| tranzpupy | Even if it's just *attention* |
| Ethonics | Thefool - just then you lost it ... the certainty ... you left the moment ... the heat and tension of it ... And you went somewhere else ... before you get back she'll find someone more interesting ... |
| haylie | The smooth feeling of lips touching |
| Ethonics | You have to build the discipline to stick with it ... |
| thefool | OK , OK , got that one ... I stand corrected.. and learn .. :) |
| Ethonics | The only thing you have to track is ... now and then ... update ... and do it again ... What I've found in the NLP community at large is that very few can build it and hold it ... |
| thefool | Well I get a lot of plays .standing behind the bar.... :) |
| Ethonics | They let it go as soon as the tension is buzzing and it dissipates. |
| tranzpupy | Any advice on getting better at building and holding... |
| thefool | So the main idea is holding it .. and intesifing it ..as we go ... |
| Ethonics | Let's go back to basics ... First you have to learn what you're experiencing in the body ... your own ... when you're at your best ... what do you do ... how are you? There will be subtle postures and gestures that are uniquely your own ... |
| thefool | That reminds me of a lot of experiences which tension built between a female and myself...but then after one flirt.. the tension is dried out and all the magic disappears and the next time we meet... they say " but I wanted you as a friend , no more.." ... |
| haylie | Hehehehehe |
| Ethonics | This is the magic ... the 'lighting from the fingertips" so to speak ... |
| Jonathan | How do you believe this 'lighting from the fingertips" informs and leads into the future of using the NLP(tm) model? |
| Ethonics | Thefool - as long as you continue to track what won't work ... so you can remain clever ... it won't ... |
| thefool | Hey ethonics maybe your lightning comes from your fingers.. mine come from my eyes ;) yes... I'm starting to think back now actually ... all the tracking begins here... coolio |
| haylie | Mine 2 like that one |
| Ethonics | It's the ability to come back to oneself and stay there ... regardless of the situation or circumstance. |
| thefool | Still it makes me wonder ... how on irc, it happens faster... I was trying to find what is that I do on irc. and how do I import it to real life. |
| Ethonics | The model as it stands is moving to a series of nifty tricks and techniques, maybe they'll last and maybe they won't. |
| thefool | Now for once the sentece ... " what the f___ does it matter what they will think if..... " makes sence to me hehehe.. |
| Jonathan | Ahhhh! Here we go into the gold.... |
| Ethonics | What RB is moving to is a 'new' model, DHE, and beyond, so that he can reaccess the whole form. |
| thefool | That is y those who think of themselves as donjuans... and actualy play that part and play with females .. have females falling for them all the time.. |
| Ethonics | John Grinder is talking about 'new code', the stucture of 'personal genius'. As I understand it the premise is multiple perspectives in perceptual awareness. |
| Jonathan | I agree with you there, Joe! |
| Occum | Like my friend the shark, who believes (I mean really truly believes) that every woman wants him. |
| thefool | There you go , what a NON limiTINg belife.. ehehe |
| Ethonics | What I'm leading the attention to here is the ability to direct the internal experience in a way that suits you ... outside of the external stimulus present. |
| thefool | Well , Joe by doing that you actualy creat the external stimulus... |
| Ethonics | If what determines who you are is the external stimulus then you are at the mercy of the context you find yourself in. |
| thefool | like saing life is happening to u.. instead of .. I make my life happen |
| Ethonics | What I think you're doing is operating as the 'strange attractor' in the system and causing it to conform to you. This is a constant in an changing system. You set the internal structure and filter your experience through this ... A 'strange attractor' is a term from Chaos Theory. It is the constant in a system which provides the basis for the systems responses in pattern. |
| thefool | But that is actualy what happens with perception allways... when you are happy , you percive your experiences as bright, when you are sad you percive your experiences as dark ... i.e. optimism and pesimism |
| tangram | You pick the frame for the picture |
| Ethonics | What I'm directing your attention to ... is what gets your attention. When does 'it' take over and you find you've lost yourself in 'it'? Again, thefool, you give us the code, what I'm asking is what comes before light or dark for you ... |
| thefool | I know what breaks me out of it , and that is when I start thinking about it ... |
| Jonathan | When do I fully externalize? Is that the same thing? |
| Ethonics | You want to set the terms not respond to them ... this is the internal structure I mentioned at the beginning of the chat. |
| thefool | My choice to feel good or bad. .. I choose how to feel...and by that I frame my perception ... |
| Marc | back |
| Ethonics | Before you 'frame' it ... go before the frame ... then check the internal response position ... I'm suggesting you check the internal rhythmic response ... |
| thefool | The framing is a byprodoct of me choosing the way I want to feel ... I'm lost in pools of logic now .. doooh |
| Ethonics | Probably at or just below the center of your body. Stop for one minute and try it on ... check the internal experience as your sitting there ... what's the internal pace like??? |
| tangram | I can think of things that make me break out of 'it', but it's hard to notice what gets me into 'it'. |
| Ethonics | Tangram - the specifics I'm referencing are about thefool, yours will be different. This is another thing about the 'future' model, it must be reorganized around subjective experience, not one size fits all techniques. |
| thefool | Well if we take certain situations, as we were talking about spotting a bird in a crowd and making her interested in me .. so .. the drive force is my wantingness to have fun and enjoy .. then , I see the birds that match my lists of likes ... and fantasies.. then there is the glance catch .. the subtle smiles.. |
| Ethonics | Thefool - you can tell me you don't want to participate, but I asked you about now, if this is too much ... the tension let me know, I'll stop. |
| thefool | No cool, plz continue dude .. I'm realizing things bout myself... I never stop this kinds of enlightment in the middle .. OK so, where were we? |
| Ethonics | This stuff is all in-time ... if you do it anyother way you're stepping outside of experience. Thefool - what's you're internal experience of you body like RIGHT NOW, in terms of the internal rhythm and pace??? |
| thefool | Yes, I know ...what I was describing is an actual experience I had , and I was actually going through it. Well now ... I'm like mighty interested in the brains, got some poundings in the mid of the body around solarplexus .. |
| Ethonics | This is an NLP bastardization ... "go and think of a time ..." which means go META, "don't have the experience you're really having right now." |
| thefool | Like standing in a short but tight tunnel with a beutiful light at the near eand |
| Ethonics | Thefool - perfect, set the visual aside for a moment, at least consciously, |
| thefool | Done. So OK , the smiles on my face again ... |
| Ethonics | You can just let it drift in and out as you continue ... but you don't need to report on it. |
| thefool | OK |
| Ethonics | The pounding ... what's the rhythm??? Once a minute ... twice??? |
| thefool | I got the smile, got the some tingling, got the looks .. Well its like waves... its like ... doooh .. ehehhe cannot say |
| Ethonics | And in-between the rhythm, what is there??? |
| thefool | Well I get the feeling of my body there .. as a center of the universe for me at the moment .. |
| Ethonics | It's in the space between the rhythm that it's possible that you'll find a something of yourself that you've left out before. Does the internal experience go quiet inside the rhythm??? |
| thefool | I'm having a tiny whiny problem with the rhythm word... The word rhythm is actualy making me think out of .... Look for a rhythm .. which then I lose the experience I was in .. |
| Ethonics | Okay ... change it to indicate the space inbetween the pounds ... do you notice your facial muscles relaxing |
| thefool | Not really ... I notice though that my eyes wander to the floor, aimlessly kind of wander... like a shy little kid.. yes that's the one.. |
| Ethonics | Fine ... I want you to take one moment and track the response through the body process ... which then creates a response somewhere else ... Do it again and as you do blink and open your eyes slowly ... where are they aimed??? |
| thefool | Well they go right low -- my right. |
| Ethonics | And the unconnected repsonse??? Where is it??? |
| thefool | OK then , it starts in the mid of the chest . a fear like feeling .. you know , the one you get when you strt to think .. and then you start to think , and be4 you notice you are stuck in a magic circle... of scaring urslef about what otther will think.. |
| Ethonics | Thefool - are you any quieter inside??? |
| thefool | On the contrary ... this is the point where I lost it.. |
| Ethonics | Like this before you run the 'fear' program??? Does it go quiet just before you talk to yourself??? |
| thefool | There is something there... |
| Ethonics | Okay ... go back and add this in ... When are you at your best??? |
| thefool | But I cant track it down .. |
| Ethonics | Just answer quickly as you can ... |
| thefool | After laughing |
| Ethonics | When are you at your best? |
| thefool | After a funny movie |
| Ethonics | Laughing? |
| thefool | Mighty energized |
| Ethonics | Got it ... |
| thefool | Yes ... thats is when I'm on my best.. after making my friends laugh ... |
| Ethonics | NOW add that it to the space before the 'fear' sounds off ... |
| thefool | OK so I'm back on track ... eyes fall, eyes get up... |
| Ethonics | Go back and hold it ... you're on track before you get off. |
| thefool | OK so I need an anchor for that one ?... kick it before even I think of the thought of the fear program... |
| Ethonics | When the eyes go up ... there's a point there ... can you lock onto it ... for a second or less? |
| thefool | Yes, warmth up my solarplexus.. I can actualy put it on pause and stay with that feeling .. which is quite GREAT heheh ;P |
| Ethonics | Throw your whole mind to that point, just for a second ... no more ... and then notice without any meaning attached what is occuring in your solar plexus ... What's occuring in the solar plexus? I said one second ... no more. |
| thefool | Like a warmth ball filling in the cold blue ball that .. actualy never came in ... now. LOL! God, this makes my logicmind laugh like mad ... hehe |
| Ethonics | NOW add in the visual you put aside before and do it in full color! Whats the color ... quickly ... no more ... thinking ... just let it fill out of you ... |
| thefool | Well, got reds in there... warm colors.. |
| Ethonics | And ... |
| thefool | Well I dont see the tunnel no more.. |
| Ethonics | Now back to the point and ... quickly ... |
| thefool | I see a red ball in my chest covering a blue ice peg... that is there no more .. |
| Ethonics | Your attention on the warming and filling of the solar plexus ... |
| thefool | GOD I even got the whole idea of what you are doing as we are doing it... |
| Ethonics | By Gawd, I think you've got it ... just color ... warm, filling in the colors ... and this is the immediate experience outside of think ... |
| tranzpupy | Wow |
| Ethonics | This was for 'them' not you ... you just no more ... thinking ... about feeling full and warm ... all over ... even when you can do it again ... |
| Jonathan | Very nice! |
| Ethonics | You will find that it's possible in ordinary time ... |
| thefool | And as I ran it faster and faster.. I tried another slow run , and at the usual moment of what used to be there and is no more.. I took this great deep breath in... |
| Ethonics | Thanks fool no more ... I think this might be a good place to open it up to some finishing questions ... |
| thefool | That was one great double-teaching ... triple-teaching actually, I learned 3 things which I realize now... and for that Joe I'll be forever in your gratitude.. mighty thanks man ... !!! |
| Marc | Okay. Can you sum up your Whole Point? |
| Ethonics | Marc - no I'm not capable, I can not unpack twelve years of my life's work in a minute or two. I hope that the whole is representative and complete unto itself. If there's a specific question I'll do my best to answer ... |
| thefool | Marc: read the log ... and just run the proces on yourself. |
| Jonathan | I have a question -- Do you know when & where your upcoming trainings are going to be |
| Marc | What were you trying to tell us about parts and all that? |
| Ethonics | Fool no more ... your welcome ... it was you who done it ... we were just the observers ... although well skilled observers at that :-) |
| thefool | heheh Joe .. |
| Ethonics | Marc - with all due respect to fool no more ... DON'T run the process it was designed to him ... You operate on different frequency ... |
| Marc | Right |
| thefool | Joe... what I mean .. was in actualy ... the idea... the way .. the leadings.. |
| thefool | The content fills itslef with every diferent person ... |
| Ethonics | What I was doing was demonstrating an intime intervention ... on line ... bypassing ordinary perception and limiting ... the limiting factor ... outside of the cognitive process ... here there are no 'parts' .... just the whole person ... in experience of themselves. |
| Marc | Oh, I thought you were talking a lot of Theory -- or at least you were before |
| Ethonics | Jonathan ... Thanks for the intro to our "stuff". My recommendation to anyone interested is to drop by our website at http://www.appliednlp.com and check the calendar. |
| Jonathan | Sure! My pleasure. |
| thefool | Hehe marc I was swooshing with theories when Joe said that is the code and made me go in |
| tranzpupy | That was really cool! |
| Ethonics | We'll be in California, London, and Sao Paulo soon ... We also just put up an open forum where we'll be tracking threads addressing these kinds of topics ... again you can get there from the website. |
| Jonathan | Again, check out Applied Behavioral Technologies for those trainings. Which events have available seats still? |
| thefool | London! Mighty cool! I hope I get enough money before then. |
| tranzpupy | I just signed up for the forum today... it's a cool forum... |
| Jonathan | Everyone should sign up there and visit with other NLP'ers there too! I'd like to ask all of YOU to give each other a pat on the back as well... for contributing and exploring and being willing to share your thoughts with the group... and especially to the select few who opened up with Joe and dealt with their issues more directly! |
| thefool | I'm hugging the stuffing outta jonathan! |
| Ethonics | These training are small - 8-12 people max ... and we work personally with everyone ... so far the next open seats are in August and October. |
| Jonathan | While we're REALLY grateful to Joe and to the upcoming chat-featured trainers.. (including NLPerDude this Sunday!).... Its the GROUP that makes these chats the magic that they are.... So please, after giving yourselves the appreciation you deserve... can I ask for a round of thanks and applause to Joseph Riggio -- He's been more than generous TWICE now with his time and energy! Thank you Joe! |
| Ethonics | Thanks again everone, and Marc, if you'd like email me and I'll do by best to untheorize it with you. We can even do a chat live on the forum site some night with you in center stage ... you'll let me know. |
| tranzpupy | Yeah, RAH! |
| tangram | Thanks! |
| thefool | Yeeehaaa for Joseph |
| haylie | Thanks :) |
| NLPerDude | Thanks and applause |
| _Stile_ | *Applause* |
| Wild1 | What is the price range Joe? |
| Ethonics | The trainings are around $900 USD for four days ... a little less if paid in advance ... drop me an email if you're interested and I'll get you info. |
| haylie | I'm whistling! |
| Marc | What I need most right now, Joe, is actual changework... |
| Ethonics | Marc - drop me an email if your interested and we'll do the work ... |
| Marc | Online? |
| Ethonics | Marc - NO privately, one to one. You can call me at 800.405.6555 or 201.512.8772 out of the US. I do work with clients internationally. |
| Jonathan | Folks - SIGN UP NOW while you can to Joe's trainings, before the seats are gone! THANK YOU Joe... THANK YOU everyone else -- this was GREAT! |
| NLPerDude | I really got a great deal out of tonight, Joe. I never though of postulating ocillations of attention/state instead of parts. |
| Ethonics | Jonathan and all ...THANKS AGAIN for the evening, your time, your attention and your input!!! |
| Jonathan | My pleasure! Your website looks great, by the way, Joseph... people can visit you and find out more about your trainings at http://www.appliednlp.com. If you'll allow me to close with a couple of announcements, we also have another CHAT to announce... On Sunday 7/5 -- at 7pm EDT, Wesley Anderson (NLPerDude) will be joining us here in THIS channel for a chat on "NLP Language Patterns, Beyond the Basics." So make sure to remember to attend! And we have more trainers lined up for down the line as well! Including several Master Trainers whose names you'd recognize in a heartbeat! I'm really looking forward to Wesley's chat -- he's very fluid with language patterns -- and I know he's getting primed up for it as well! All these chats will be on the site shortly after the chats are done! Goodnight folks! |
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