Joseph Riggio & the Mythoself model - NLP Chat

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IRC Chat Log, June 21, 1998

Generative Imprint™, Ready State™, Ready Mode™, G.D.S™, & Generalized Desired State™, as well as the processes they represent, are trademarks of Roye Fraser.

Introduction
Jonathan	OK folks... I'd like to welcome ALL of you to the first in what will hopefully become a series of chats with featured NLP Trainer. I'm really pleased that Joe has agreed to join us tonight for an hour or two of his valuable time and share with us some of his ideas on the present model of NLP and where can we take it? Joe has been training for many years and I'm glad you could join us tonight! Thanks! Joe -- I'm not sure if you have a set format, but perhaps you'd like to start by introducing more of your background... and introducing your topic for the evening! If you wish to invite questions, feel free to do so at any time. And to the attendees -- I'll ask that you wait until he does -- to ask them! I'm done for now -- Joe -- thanks again, and I'm excited about the rest of the evening!
A chat with Joseph Riggio (ethonics)
ethonics	Your welcome ... let's start here ... "Language is the house of 'Being'" -Heiddeger. It's not my intention to put you off with the language usage ... however it's also not my intention to keep you comfortable ... and in this way what I intend is to offer a framework beyond what is 'ordinary' so that we can explore the 'extraordinary' ... since what is 'real' is a function of our perceptual capacity and then our ability to maintain this representation. We need to have access to alternate forms of consciousness ... to match the territory in which we intend the world to be for us... Someone asked earlier (before we started) what kind of NLP do I do? What I think in terms of is the ontological position a person chooses and operate from, this is their desired state of being. A way of being in the world on an ongoing basis ... Roye who I mentioned earlier refers to this in his model the "Generative Imprint™" as the Generalized Desired State, the G.D.S. ... this is both the beginning and the end. what is intended is to operate from this position at all times ... and from this to manifest the experiences that are most desired and in line with this way of being. Then into this ... the G.D.S. ... skills and functionality are layered in ... woven into the DNA as it were ... of the individual. Any questions?
Occum	Maybe you could explain for some of us what ontology is.
ethonics	As I use it ... ontology is a way of being ... the individual's ground of Being.
anat	And is this an inner state or an external state G.D.S.?
ethonics	Although the terms I use may seem complex at first ... I'm really quite a simple guy! Both ... the GDS is the total in-time representation the individual holds and operates through.
Jonathan	Webster says Ontology is "A branch of Metaphysics relating to the nature and relations of being......"
Occum	Ok from my reading ontology is the study of how we know.
anat	Be-ing and the manifested environment...?
ethonics	Let me clear things up ... sometimes my usage ain't directly in line with Daniel's... also to go a bit further ... how one knows is what understand 'Epistemology' to be the study of ...
Jonathan	One question: In yours and Roye's model, Is the G.D.S. a single state? Or does it contextually vary a little bit?
ethonics	It's Roye's model ... and the GDS is specific to the individual and constant ... with evolutionary possibility independent from the context ... and from the GDS all behavior is flexible in response to the context and aligned with the GDS ... a manifestation of it as well as recursive to it ...
Occum	I'm sorry your correct.
ethonics	No need to apologize ... I'm not necessarily correct ... I'm just a libertarian ;-)
Occum	LOL. ;-)
Jonathan	ROTFL!
ethonics	HOWEVER, with that said in this context ... I am right :-)))
anat	me too.
Jonathan	Thank you for clarifying the singular and flexible nature of the GDS
ethonics	In the end what Roye intended was to create a direct mechanism to access and operate the 'idealize subjective experience'. What I'm interested in is the transpersonal applications and implications. Specifically how can a person organize their experience to be operating from a state of 'bliss', ala Joseph Campbell.
Jonathan	Ergo your connection to Myth... ;) ding lightbulbs are flashing
ethonics	My workshop is called the Mythogenic Self ... yes. The basis is that there is a mythic representation that a person holds to be true of them ... even if it's beyond their conscious recognition. And this representation organizes the totality of their experience. Any longing they perceive is in relation to the degree with which their thinking and behaviors are not aligned with this. It may be time to get back to basics ... I see you're all still tuned in ... and I've been "talking" too much ... what's on YOUR minds and why are you interested in this model (NLP)???
sunny	I'm interested in the concept of self and I want to understand it in all aspects of it
follie	... so the GDS is how we each see ourself when we're at our best?
ethonics	follie ... YES, YES, YES!!! or hear, feel, smell and taste as well. Again the way I tend to apply it, is through the body experience as a K++
Jonathan	(for the newbies -- K = Kinesthetic, is what I'm assuming your reference to be)
pouch	yes, how do we organize our GDS?
finter	How can I organize 'my' experience so i can operate 'in' a state of 'bliss' ? - if its not a ignorant question (if so please ignore)
ethonics	finter ... good question. First how you experience 'bliss' is at the core of the question. You have to 'have' this experience in-time to organize to it. You can do this through an extraordinary self-reflection and awareness ... or you can work with someone skilled enough to elicit a full blown representation who can calibrate the subtlety of it.
follie	guess you can tell i'm visual :-)
ethonics	I kinda guessed that was the access here at least. Unless I'm guessing wrong ... you probably also use the other 'stuff' too.
follie	yes ... secondarily k
ethonics	For you 'newbies' .... the idea of a 'representation type' is b---s--t!!! People are all these things simultaneously!
Jonathan	Quick comment here from the sidelines... the SUBTLETY in calibration is what makes this magic. Calibrating posture is the easy part... if I'm not mistaken, Joe...?
finter	huh?
Jonathan	LOL Joe, definitely true ;)
ethonics	They just can't track more than one or two in simultaneaity ... and most NLP Trainer can't either. Calibrating gross posture is both easy and often overlooked. I was once at a training in which RB made some comment that 30 seconds of pacing and rapport is enough and then it's all leading. He so full of it!!! He was pacing this guy to death! He never stopped pacing ... and talk about subtle. It's just at this level pacing and leading are seperated by nanoseconds.
Occum	Like bodylanguage?
ethonics	Occum (like the razor co.?) ... yes ... but again far more subtle.
Occum	Yes. I got the wrong spelling though.
Jonathan	How about a simple example, Joe, of what you might calibrate simultaneously?
ethonics	I can not describe the depth of calibration I'm referring to on-line. This is an intime to be experienced kind of thing. E.T. Hall describes this well in his book Beyond Culture when he refers to 'adumbration' ... I prefer it to 'calibration' (a far grosser level of observation and playback). I calibrate it all ... in simultaneaity ... because I let the client take me with them. I'm already in a 'ready' state ... open ... vunerable ... and solid as steel inside.
finter	can i ask a question joe?
ethonics	Then they give it all away ... the non-verbal to verbal match and sequencing for example. finter .. yes
finter	with all your experience of human emotion do u beleive we all have a soul?
ethonics	Yes ... I do. But what I think and believe this is, may or may not be the same thing as you or anyone else on the planet.
Occum	Are you able, at this point, to do this pretty much automatically? I find for myself (then again I'm new at this) that I have to think about mirroring and such.
ethonics	I definitely believe in something Greater Than Self which organize the larger pattern.
Occum	Pacing and leading with multiple things that is.
ethonics	Occum ... again yes. It's not a question of doing ... although all skill requires learning and training ... it's much more a question of being ... as I state for me it's about going to and holding the 'ready' position. Pacing is leading, quoteth JSR.
Jonathan	Is this your GDS state? Or is this a manifestation of the GDS state for the purposes of calibration? or something else entirely?
ethonics	It is akin to and aligned with it, Jonathan. I like you're phrasing, "a manifestation of the GDS state for purposes of calibration", very good. finter ... did I answer your question ......... was it the answer you wanted???
pouch	Could you elaborate on the "ready" position Joe?
finter	Joseph - I was refering to the soul as this "magical energy comprising of our conciousness' ...
Jonathan	....while Joe is elaborating... Can I get a headcount? Who's with the flow here? (y/n)
anat, Occum, follie, finter, pouch	y
ethonics	to finter ... what I think is that we all tend when we're not fully aware to operate through physi-emotional positions that we think we are as we experience them. I'd suggest we are never, 'angry' or 'joyous' we experience these and other states of being. When we identify with experience we are no longer operating in consciousness.
anat	so we are not our emotions or our thoughts, but something else, experiencing that.
finter	I find the language used very difficult to understand :) ..anat - that is very profound
ethonics	pouch ... the 'ready' state is a physio-emotional state of readiness. For me this is about things like balance, fluidity, solidity, groundedness ... and yet other than to me this is meaningless. These are all nominalizations to you ... and reality to me.
Occum	So are you saying that certain behaviours flow more readily from certain mythogenic selves (identity maybe?), and other behaviours not so readily?
Jonathan	Ahhhhh yes...! I find that specific physiological positions for me hold certain emotional responses. If I even shift my body into a certain position or sequences of positions... regardless of what I may be thinking of, I can cycle through or into an unexpected emotional response.
ethonics	finter ... I agree ... this is absurd language for a simple subject ... but it causes people to take it more seriously sometimes ... and I wouldn't want it to seem as easy as it actually is ... might lose all the mystery you know ...
finter	;)
Occum	LOL.
ethonics	what want to do finter ... is to move you beyond understanding ... beyond a desire to understand ... to experience one second of something in a way that is unfamiliar to you ... and then to point it out to you ... so that you can hold it and reference it ... so that you have a position of choice available to you.
follie	lol!
ethonics	Jonathan 'old man, by George I think you've got it!"
Jonathan	I enjoy those moments
follie	... and i think that's what you did earlier for me??
ethonics	Or should I have said, 'by Roye???"
anat	LOL
Jonathan	By Roye probably applies more ;)
follie	... sorta like when all of a sudden the light bulb flashes
sunny	In a mystical experience we become that thing; isn't it contradictory that we are not our thoughts or emotions in transpersonal psychology (sorry this question is a bit late)
ethonics	If in fact we do this once tonight together ... I'd suggest we've moved to the transconscious position ... we are beginning to access where reality is generated. (How's that for profound language, huh?)_
follie	ummmm.... transconscious .... is that standing up, sitting down or rofl...
ethonics	Occum ... I got caught up there for a bit, sorry. Yes, again kinda'. A certain organization of 'being' allows for a class of experience to flow. This flow initiates behaviors which literally create reality. And then the perceptual experience is used to track the match and fit ... internal to external. When we are completely aligned internally and externally to the mythic representation which we believe is most 'us' ... then we could be said to be in that state of bliss referred to earlier.
Occum	No cognitive dissonance eh?
ethonics	No cognitive dissonance ... no dissonance at all.
Jonathan	Traditional NLP language might describe this as a way of increasing your sensory acuity to track your own progress towards an outcome, and keep you on the right path, yes?
ethonics	That what some NLPers would say. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this is almost at the exterme limits of sensory and perceptual capacity.
anat	extrasensory?
sunny	Joe, you refer to Higher Self by the term Mythogenic Self, am I right?
ethonics	Sunny ... in a way ... I like to use the term ... GTS ... Greater Than Self ... for some this may be a recognition of Nature and the fit and match to it we all seem to share ... for others it's G-d.
sunny	Do you think everyone can reach this state?
finter	I think many of us may have already reached it without labelling it
ethonics	anat ... I'm not sure we know the limits of our 'sensory perception' yet ... so I'm not willing to say it's 'extrasensory'. What I will say is that at some point when you've entered into a full representation of the present experience you will have a psychic awareness. This is especially true with reference to others when you can get 'you' out of the way. sunny/finter ... yes I agree with you both.
Occum	You mean sort of a hyperempiric awareness?
finter	Joseph - would you also be refering to remote viewing here? Major Ed Dames
ethonics	What I do with clients is to allow them the opportunity of a greatere awareness of this state ... with more of it fully present and accounted for than they are usually able to recognize on their own ... at least in conscious sensory terms.
anat	Joe: I like that answer about extrasensory!
Occum	Giving them a way to make better quality use of the incoming sensory information?
ethonics	Occum/finter ... again .... in a way. I like to be where I am ... only more fully than I used to ... be doing it ... before ... now I'm usually always where I am ... when I'm here ... :->
Jonathan	I could be cutting things short... but we've covered different angles with respect to the GDS and how we can achieve and maintain it.... and I'm wondering what the results of this model can be and where we can take it (or where it takes US!)....
anat	cool...
Occum	LOL.
pouch	I think some NLers have labelled moving toward the mythic representation as "Values Alignment", right?
finter	So once your map of reality is acurate you reach this state?
ethonics	pouch ... that ain't it.
pouch	ok
follie	i'm with you jonathan
ethonics	Values Alignment is a technique ... pure and simple. What I'm referring to can not be accessed through technique. I'm not taking you to task ... but those who you may have heard that from. Alllow me to drop in a little story ...
sunny	GDS reminds me of the state reached by the technique of TM
ethonics	About a year or so ago some NLPers wanted to get together to decide once and for all what NLP was ... and they succeeded ... they defined what it was ... some of them were the developers .... co-developers ... peers and assistants of developers and codevelopers and so on ... and what they forgot to add in was what is NLP now ... where has it gone ... where is it going ... so they all sat around discussing and glorying in the days of old. Being a NJ boy it reminds me of Bruce's "Glory Days" ... as I listened all I could think was ... it's passed them by ... NLP is not and has never been the techniques... it's what generates the techniques ... and that's about people ... operating beyond what's possible ... I'll tell you this as I end ... there be monsters there ...
Jonathan	YES!!!!
pouch	aha!
ethonics	SO folks where do you think NLP "should' be goin'????
Jonathan	I agree that the tools & techniques are NOT NLP per se -- they are what was produced with/by NLP! For starters... I think NLP may still have a great deal to overcome in terms of people's perceptions. A lot of people don't trust NLP. A lot of people think NLP feelings aren't real feelings... And a lot of people who say "isn't NLP manipulative?" don't trust their OWN ethical positions or wouldn't trust their own ethics if they had greater influential capabilities.
finter	toward the lay-man ;) so ordinary people can understand it
ethonics	finter ... they say 'great minds think alike ... I agree ... in terms of application ... and yet to get there those who claim expertise better know a little more and be a little more skilled then their clients ...
finter	sure. A lot of people dont know about NLP because it uses so much complicated language
ethonics	I'd caution you though about going for to much understanding ... get the experience first and then you can aim at understanding all you like .. finter ... I like your questions and persistence! Bravo!!! What I'll offer you is that NLP as I use it is not the language ... it's what happens in-between. Then again I may not be doing NLP at all ...
anat	LOL
Jonathan	Well... I certainly agree with that, Joe... the words in language itself is only 8% of the communication that happens between us in person. And I think greatness with NLP or with anything requires a greater sense of trust in our unconscious abilities and our.. central selves...
finter	Bandler says in his early books that 'to much understanding' can limit learning
ethonics	you'd have no trouble getting more than a few 'trainers' to agree with you on that one ;-)))
follie	i think learning to trust oneself takes a lot of work - it's not easy
anat	I don't have to understand everything... but I like to have words to hang my experiences on...even when the words are just "coat hooks"
Jonathan	So perhaps this... Joe... is similar to what you mean when you propose we find an ideal state -- a GDS or mythogenic self...?
follie	to truly trust oneself, that is
Occum	Well one of the tough things is that experience is so information dense, and NLP is about experience.
ethonics	finter ... Now you're quoting RB about too much understanding. You've obviously read the stuff ... now tell me ... it's like we're old friends already ... what do YOU want??? Let's see if I can walk my talk.
finter	well i've only been into this stuff a few weeks :) I want to fix a 'broken person' ;0
ethonics	anat ... this is the trap of the intellectual and the educated ... I know I'm on touchy ground ... but nature never hurts the one who loves her ... (R.F.)
anat	Wot, the coat hooks?
Jonathan	People aren't broken, finter! They may not be practicing ideal behaviors..... at this time....
ethonics	finter ... WHO??? Are we talking about you??? If not let's start there ... and I'll suggest we think in terms like ... they ain't broken ... just out of touch with what works. Anat ... the language ... the understanding (or it's illusion) ... and yes the coat hooks ... give them up ...
finter	yes me - I was making a joke about what Bandler dislikes - the term a Broken Person!!
anat	uh oh... the camel and the needle again...
ethonics	So what is it you want -finter??? How do you know yourself to be when you are whole??? Think about it ... I'm not looking for fancy words and an accurate description to fact ... rather how you know in yourself this is true.
finter	I feel it. I dont think you can put that into words. Its a feeling that goes behind everthing else
ethonics	anat ... the scene that's always done it for me is at the end of Indiana Jone and the Quest for the Holy Grail ... when he must ... beyond all reason take a leap of faith ... he's gone further than his reason can take him ...
finter	like the colour a painter paints onto his canvas before he starts
ethonics	finter ... I agree completely ... where ... do you feel it??? Start at your finger tips ... go up the arms and connect this to the core ... you'll know it when you find it/
anat	yes. I understand ... uh... I feel what you're saying... and I think you are right...how, I wonder, does one let go of it...
ethonics	anat ... you have something else which is so real you can afford to ...
anat	yes. be-ing.
ethonics	Bill Moyer's was interviewing Joseph Campbell for the Power of Myth series ... at one point he asked him something like, "Joseph after all this you must in your own way believe ...", after a long, lingering pause Joseph Campbell said, "I don't need belief, I have experience." finter ... come back up and out ... it doesn't take that long ....
finter	I dont know what I'm looking for
ethonics	or are you beginning to get something in there ... something beyond words ... before language ... something you like ... even better than 'understanding' ...
anat	yes
ethonics	finter .. you're not supposed to be looking at all ... you felt it remember ...what you'd felt ... then put all of your illusions aside and put all of you attention on it ... and tell me where you feel it. It's okay to use a code word for it.
finter	All i find is anxiety
finter	I'm stuck for words
ethonics	finter ... if you go looking you find ... anxiety ... and my guess ... we're pretty far away from one another ... is that in this you are an expert ... all I'm asking is for you to put it aside ... not give it up ... just put it aside long enouth to feel yourself where you begin ... before words ...
follie	joe, are you asking finter to look for a physical place on the body? ... or in the body?
ethonics	finter ... good ... just find the feeling and make up a word that you like and call it that ... follie ... yes ... it's all stored in the body process ...
Jonathan	(let me ask others to please hold back for a moment, and let Joe work with finter a bit longer here)
finter	I cant seem to dig throught the 'turf' but the colour of the canvas changes from day to day hour to hour
ethonics	I'm going to guess again that when he goes to ground, he will find that there's areas of relaxation and areas of contractions ...
finter	yeah, there is, there are holes to that
ethonics	finter ... good where's the relaxation ... forget everything else for a few more minutes
finter	through the layer of anxiety; its beneath that; beneath the first coat of paint
ethonics	find the deepest relaxation in you ... and go there now ... just deep enough ... and no deeper ...
finter	its the canvas itself; its me
ethonics	how big is this in terms of physical dimension ...
finter	70% but i can experience 90% if I was to do this for an hour maybe
ethonics	and where is it's center ...
finter	in my chest; in my heart
ethonics	it's just a point I'm referring to finter ... just a point no bigger than your finger tip
msjil	are you in love finter?
finter	yeah its there, that in-love feeling
ethonics	where's that point at the very center of your relaxation ..
finter	betwewen my ribs
ethonics	perfect ... do you understand this????
finter	I'm not sure, not really
ethonics	you don't have too ... it just is ...
finter	the centre point shifts around
ethonics	so let it begin more to move through the layers up ... to the surface experience we call language ... and give it a name ... what do you want to call the center moving point???
finter	my GDS. no -- Its just relaxation ... like when someone massages your shoulder
ethonics	finter ... just relaxation ...
finter	yeah; my GDS isn't relaxation though
ethonics	who's there with you ... (just kidding) ...
finter	I'm alone ;)
ethonics	and when you operate through this point ... relaxation ... what's the experience like ... who are you like this??? finter ... this isn't visual ... just a reminder.
finter	I dont understand - I'm really sorry
ethonics	You're doin' fine ... and it's not that serious ... to be right ...
finter	Sorry Joseph i'm stuck. What is it you want me to do?
ethonics	What you now know is that there are areas of relaxation with a center moving point, yes?
finter	Yes. The point moves to whichever part of my body I am concious of.
ethonics	and this is 70 -90% and yet you can't hold it .... always, yes?
finter	no
ethonics	then what???
finter	it can spread out from a simple point, but then when i am aware of it it shrinks down to a point on another part of my body. It keeps going like this. I could expand the point to 90% but i wouldn't be able to type.
At this point Joe met with network trouble.
Jonathan	I'm going to attempt to close gracefully here... and Joseph can finish the chat himself if the network issues are resolved in time. Finter...
finter	yes
Jonathan	what I believe Joseph is working to elicit within you... is an ideal state... a state of being...
finter	aha
Jonathan	from which all things are possible and optimally accessed and dealth with; and to create a sense of trust (not necessarily understanding, but comfort and trust) in that state!
finter	yeah
Jonathan	Does everyone (not just finter) understand this at a basic level? (y/n)
anat	n.
follie	y, i think so
finter	I have difficulty with that. Do you mean the clour of the canvas? The state that lies beneath all others?
pouch	y
Jonathan	Beyond the above (for which I hope I'm near to Joe's intentions) I will not presume to know what he was specifically intending... And I will not presume to understand exactly where he was heading... (even if I'd be really close) but it does seem clear to me that this is a highly useful state from which to handle the world.
Jonathan	FOLKS! I now have joseph on the phone with me now! Strangely, he can see everything we're typing but his IRC client won't let him type. He'd like to type thru me -- in closure! hold on... This is too funny!
anat	wow...channeling Joseph Riggio...
*ethonics*	Finter... when you mentioned that you could get it... And spread it... Or shrink it down...
finter	Yep
*ethonics*	You went directly TO it. And when you have it, what's it like?
finter	Yep. It's like my leg is... like jello... warm but at the same time cold
*ethonics*	This is the beginning! What I do is experiential, and defies language, so what you've begun is to access outside of language, and this is an opening to experience.
finter	yeah
*ethonics*	I think this is what NLP was is and will be. Any final questions quickly?
follie	I'd like to continue this another time, and find out where we take what we've learned tonight. But that's too big for a quick question.
anat	Tell Joe thank you... and ask him if he'll do another one sometime...
*ethonics*	Well folks, we're way beyond.... the GDS.... Lets' save it for another time... if you invite me, I'll come....
Jonathan	AND, I WILL invite him again soon! We'll do a part 2!
anat	great!!!
pouch	yes, please!
follie	super
Jonathan	Time to say goodnight officially... but BEFORE WE DO.... I'd like to announce to people interested in Joe's events... to find out more about when Joe is available in person.... go to http://www.appliednlp.com, and click on the Calendar button! You can also email him here: jsriggio@appliednlp.com or from the site directly....
*ethonics*	Thanks everyone!
pouch	thanks Joe
follie	thanks, joe (clap,clap,clap)
anat	thanks Joe... it was helpful... and amazing!!
finter	Jonathan, can i ask Joseph something.. about his upcomming London Seminar? In August? I want to come
Jonathan	Email him directly, please. He'll be happy to answer you directly....
finter	Great, cheerz Joe
Jonathan	OK! Joe's gone... I wanted to thank everyone for participating, of course.
anat	This was great, Jon!
Jonathan	It was fun to watch him do some nice work.... We will do a part II with Joe sometime soon
anat	yea!!
follie	the sooner, the better, so we don't lose this flow...
Jonathan	For those of you who haven't checked out my website lately, do -- I've added a bunch of material, the bookstore page now has Book Cover Images, and the upcoming Fall Seminars in NYC, Washington DC, Toronto, Los Angeles, & Atlanta are getting lots of attention & signups -- we're going to have a BLAST! I'm going to say a quick official goodnight.... and then hang out informally to chat a bit...
IRC CHAT OVER!

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