Joseph Riggio & the Mythoself model - NLP Chat

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Featuring Joseph Riggio

IRC Chat Log, June 21, 1998

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Generative Imprint™, Ready State™, Ready Mode™, G.D.S™, & Generalized Desired State™, as well as the processes they represent, are trademarks of Roye Fraser.

Introduction
Jonathan OK folks... I'd like to welcome ALL of you to the first in what will hopefully become a series of chats with featured NLP Trainer. I'm really pleased that Joe has agreed to join us tonight for an hour or two of his valuable time and share with us some of his ideas on the present model of NLP and where can we take it? Joe has been training for many years and I'm glad you could join us tonight! Thanks! Joe -- I'm not sure if you have a set format, but perhaps you'd like to start by introducing more of your background... and introducing your topic for the evening! If you wish to invite questions, feel free to do so at any time. And to the attendees -- I'll ask that you wait until he does -- to ask them! I'm done for now -- Joe -- thanks again, and I'm excited about the rest of the evening!
A chat with Joseph Riggio (ethonics)
ethonics Your welcome ... let's start here ... "Language is the house of 'Being'" -Heiddeger. It's not my intention to put you off with the language usage ... however it's also not my intention to keep you comfortable ... and in this way what I intend is to offer a framework beyond what is 'ordinary' so that we can explore the 'extraordinary' ... since what is 'real' is a function of our perceptual capacity and then our ability to maintain this representation. We need to have access to alternate forms of consciousness ... to match the territory in which we intend the world to be for us... Someone asked earlier (before we started) what kind of NLP do I do? What I think in terms of is the ontological position a person chooses and operate from, this is their desired state of being. A way of being in the world on an ongoing basis ... Roye who I mentioned earlier refers to this in his model the "Generative Imprint™" as the Generalized Desired State, the G.D.S. ... this is both the beginning and the end. what is intended is to operate from this position at all times ... and from this to manifest the experiences that are most desired and in line with this way of being. Then into this ... the G.D.S. ... skills and functionality are layered in ... woven into the DNA as it were ... of the individual. Any questions?
Occum Maybe you could explain for some of us what ontology is.
ethonics As I use it ... ontology is a way of being ... the individual's ground of Being.
anat And is this an inner state or an external state G.D.S.?
ethonics Although the terms I use may seem complex at first ... I'm really quite a simple guy! Both ... the GDS is the total in-time representation the individual holds and operates through.
Jonathan Webster says Ontology is "A branch of Metaphysics relating to the nature and relations of being......"
Occum Ok from my reading ontology is the study of how we know.
anat Be-ing and the manifested environment...?
ethonics Let me clear things up ... sometimes my usage ain't directly in line with Daniel's... also to go a bit further ... how one knows is what understand 'Epistemology' to be the study of ...
Jonathan One question: In yours and Roye's model, Is the G.D.S. a single state? Or does it contextually vary a little bit?
ethonics It's Roye's model ... and the GDS is specific to the individual and constant ... with evolutionary possibility independent from the context ... and from the GDS all behavior is flexible in response to the context and aligned with the GDS ... a manifestation of it as well as recursive to it ...
Occum I'm sorry your correct.
ethonics No need to apologize ... I'm not necessarily correct ... I'm just a libertarian ;-)
Occum LOL. ;-)
Jonathan ROTFL!
ethonics HOWEVER, with that said in this context ... I am right :-)))
anat me too.
Jonathan Thank you for clarifying the singular and flexible nature of the GDS
ethonics In the end what Roye intended was to create a direct mechanism to access and operate the 'idealize subjective experience'. What I'm interested in is the transpersonal applications and implications. Specifically how can a person organize their experience to be operating from a state of 'bliss', ala Joseph Campbell.
Jonathan Ergo your connection to Myth... ;) *ding* lightbulbs are flashing
ethonics My workshop is called the Mythogenic Self ... yes. The basis is that there is a mythic representation that a person holds to be true of them ... even if it's beyond their conscious recognition. And this representation organizes the totality of their experience. Any longing they perceive is in relation to the degree with which their thinking and behaviors are not aligned with this. It may be time to get back to basics ... I see you're all still tuned in ... and I've been "talking" too much ... what's on YOUR minds and why are you interested in this model (NLP)???
sunny I'm interested in the concept of self and I want to understand it in all aspects of it
follie ... so the GDS is how we each see ourself when we're at our best?
ethonics follie ... YES, YES, YES!!! or hear, feel, smell and taste as well. Again the way I tend to apply it, is through the body experience as a K++
Jonathan (for the newbies -- K = Kinesthetic, is what I'm assuming your reference to be)
pouch yes, how do we organize our GDS?
finter How can I organize 'my' experience so i can operate 'in' a state of 'bliss' ? - if its not a ignorant question (if so please ignore)
ethonics finter ... good question. First how you experience 'bliss' is at the core of the question. You have to 'have' this experience in-time to organize to it. You can do this through an extraordinary self-reflection and awareness ... or you can work with someone skilled enough to elicit a full blown representation who can calibrate the subtlety of it.
follie guess you can tell i'm visual :-)
ethonics I kinda guessed that was the access here at least. Unless I'm guessing wrong ... you probably also use the other 'stuff' too.
follie yes ... secondarily k
ethonics For you 'newbies' .... the idea of a 'representation type' is b---s--t!!! People are all these things simultaneously!
Jonathan Quick comment here from the sidelines... the SUBTLETY in calibration is what makes this magic. Calibrating posture is the easy part... if I'm not mistaken, Joe...?
finter huh?
Jonathan LOL Joe, definitely true ;)
ethonics They just can't track more than one or two in simultaneaity ... and most NLP Trainer can't either. Calibrating gross posture is both easy and often overlooked. I was once at a training in which RB made some comment that 30 seconds of pacing and rapport is enough and then it's all leading. He so full of it!!! He was pacing this guy to death! He never stopped pacing ... and talk about subtle. It's just at this level pacing and leading are seperated by nanoseconds.
Occum Like bodylanguage?
ethonics Occum (like the razor co.?) ... yes ... but again far more subtle.
Occum Yes. I got the wrong spelling though.
Jonathan How about a simple example, Joe, of what you might calibrate simultaneously?
ethonics I can not describe the depth of calibration I'm referring to on-line. This is an intime to be experienced kind of thing. E.T. Hall describes this well in his book Beyond Culture when he refers to 'adumbration' ... I prefer it to 'calibration' (a far grosser level of observation and playback). I calibrate it all ... in simultaneaity ... because I let the client take me with them. I'm already in a 'ready' state ... open ... vunerable ... and solid as steel inside.
finter can i ask a question joe?
ethonics Then they give it all away ... the non-verbal to verbal match and sequencing for example. finter .. yes
finter with all your experience of human emotion do u beleive we all have a soul?
ethonics Yes ... I do. But what I think and believe this is, may or may not be the same thing as you or anyone else on the planet.
Occum Are you able, at this point, to do this pretty much automatically? I find for myself (then again I'm new at this) that I have to think about mirroring and such.
ethonics I definitely believe in something Greater Than Self which organize the larger pattern.
Occum Pacing and leading with multiple things that is.
ethonics Occum ... again yes. It's not a question of doing ... although all skill requires learning and training ... it's much more a question of being ... as I state for me it's about going to and holding the 'ready' position. Pacing is leading, quoteth JSR.
Jonathan Is this your GDS state? Or is this a manifestation of the GDS state for the purposes of calibration? or something else entirely?
ethonics It is akin to and aligned with it, Jonathan. I like you're phrasing, "a manifestation of the GDS state for purposes of calibration", very good. finter ... did I answer your question ......... was it the answer you wanted???
pouch Could you elaborate on the "ready" position Joe?
finter Joseph - I was refering to the soul as this "magical energy comprising of our conciousness' ...
Jonathan ....while Joe is elaborating... Can I get a headcount? Who's with the flow here? (y/n)
anat, Occum, follie, finter, pouch y
ethonics to finter ... what I think is that we all tend when we're not fully aware to operate through physi-emotional positions that we think we are as we experience them. I'd suggest we are never, 'angry' or 'joyous' we experience these and other states of being. When we identify with experience we are no longer operating in consciousness.
anat so we are not our emotions or our thoughts, but something else, experiencing that.
finter I find the language used very difficult to understand :) ..anat - that is very profound
ethonics pouch ... the 'ready' state is a physio-emotional state of readiness. For me this is about things like balance, fluidity, solidity, groundedness ... and yet other than to me this is meaningless. These are all nominalizations to you ... and reality to me.
Occum So are you saying that certain behaviours flow more readily from certain mythogenic selves (identity maybe?), and other behaviours not so readily?
Jonathan Ahhhhh yes...! I find that specific physiological positions for me hold certain emotional responses. If I even shift my body into a certain position or sequences of positions... regardless of what I may be thinking of, I can cycle through or into an unexpected emotional response.
ethonics finter ... I agree ... this is absurd language for a simple subject ... but it causes people to take it more seriously sometimes ... and I wouldn't want it to seem as easy as it actually is ... might lose all the mystery you know ...
finter ;)
Occum LOL.
ethonics what want to do finter ... is to move you beyond understanding ... beyond a desire to understand ... to experience one second of something in a way that is unfamiliar to you ... and then to point it out to you ... so that you can hold it and reference it ... so that you have a position of choice available to you.
follie lol!
ethonics Jonathan 'old man, by George I think you've got it!"
Jonathan I enjoy those moments
follie ... and i think that's what you did earlier for me??
ethonics Or should I have said, 'by Roye???"
anat LOL
Jonathan By Roye probably applies more ;)
follie ... sorta like when all of a sudden the light bulb flashes
sunny In a mystical experience we *become* that thing; isn't it contradictory that we are not our thoughts or emotions in transpersonal psychology (sorry this question is a bit late)
ethonics If in fact we do this once tonight together ... I'd suggest we've moved to the transconscious position ... we are beginning to access where reality is generated. (How's that for profound language, huh?)_
follie ummmm.... transconscious .... is that standing up, sitting down or rofl...
ethonics Occum ... I got caught up there for a bit, sorry. Yes, again kinda'. A certain organization of 'being' allows for a class of experience to flow. This flow initiates behaviors which literally create reality. And then the perceptual experience is used to track the match and fit ... internal to external. When we are completely aligned internally and externally to the mythic representation which we believe is most 'us' ... then we could be said to be in that state of bliss referred to earlier.
Occum No cognitive dissonance eh?
ethonics No cognitive dissonance ... no dissonance at all.
Jonathan Traditional NLP language might describe this as a way of increasing your sensory acuity to track your own progress towards an outcome, and keep you on the right path, yes?
ethonics That what some NLPers would say. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this is almost at the exterme limits of sensory and perceptual capacity.
anat extrasensory?
sunny Joe, you refer to Higher Self by the term Mythogenic Self, am I right?
ethonics Sunny ... in a way ... I like to use the term ... GTS ... Greater Than Self ... for some this may be a recognition of Nature and the fit and match to it we all seem to share ... for others it's G-d.
sunny Do you think everyone can reach this state?
finter I think many of us may have already reached it without labelling it
ethonics anat ... I'm not sure we know the limits of our 'sensory perception' yet ... so I'm not willing to say it's 'extrasensory'. What I will say is that at some point when you've entered into a full representation of the present experience you will have a psychic awareness. This is especially true with reference to others when you can get 'you' out of the way. sunny/finter ... yes I agree with you both.
Occum You mean sort of a hyperempiric awareness?
finter Joseph - would you also be refering to remote viewing here? Major Ed Dames
ethonics What I do with clients is to allow them the opportunity of a greatere awareness of this state ... with more of it fully present and accounted for than they are usually able to recognize on their own ... at least in conscious sensory terms.
anat Joe: I like that answer about extrasensory!
Occum Giving them a way to make better quality use of the incoming sensory information?
ethonics Occum/finter ... again .... in a way. I like to be where I am ... only more fully than I used to ... be doing it ... before ... now I'm usually always where I am ... when I'm here ... :->
Jonathan I could be cutting things short... but we've covered different angles with respect to the GDS and how we can achieve and maintain it.... and I'm wondering what the results of this model can be and where we can take it (or where it takes US!)....
anat cool...
Occum LOL.
pouch I think some NLers have labelled moving toward the mythic representation as "Values Alignment", right?
finter So once your map of reality is acurate you reach this state?
ethonics pouch ... that ain't it.
pouch ok
follie i'm with you jonathan
ethonics Values Alignment is a technique ... pure and simple. What I'm referring to can not be accessed through technique. I'm not taking you to task ... but those who you may have heard that from. Alllow me to drop in a little story ...
sunny GDS reminds me of the state reached by the technique of TM
ethonics About a year or so ago some NLPers wanted to get together to decide once and for all what NLP was ... and they succeeded ... they defined what it was ... some of them were the developers .... co-developers ... peers and assistants of developers and codevelopers and so on ... and what they forgot to add in was what is NLP now ... where has it gone ... where is it going ... so they all sat around discussing and glorying in the days of old. Being a NJ boy it reminds me of Bruce's "Glory Days" ... as I listened all I could think was ... it's passed them by ... NLP is not and has never been the techniques... it's what generates the techniques ... and that's about people ... operating beyond what's possible ... I'll tell you this as I end ... there be monsters there ...
Jonathan YES!!!!
pouch aha!
ethonics SO folks where do you think NLP "should' be goin'????
Jonathan I agree that the tools & techniques are NOT NLP per se -- they are what was produced with/by NLP! For starters... I think NLP may still have a great deal to overcome in terms of people's perceptions. A lot of people don't trust NLP. A lot of people think NLP feelings aren't real feelings... And a lot of people who say "isn't NLP manipulative?" don't trust their OWN ethical positions or wouldn't trust their own ethics if they had greater influential capabilities.
finter toward the lay-man ;) so ordinary people can understand it
ethonics finter ... they say 'great minds think alike ... I agree ... in terms of application ... and yet to get there those who claim expertise better know a little more and be a little more skilled then their clients ...
finter sure. A lot of people dont know about NLP because it uses so much complicated language
ethonics I'd caution you though about going for to much understanding ... get the experience first and then you can aim at understanding all you like .. finter ... I like your questions and persistence! Bravo!!! What I'll offer you is that NLP as I use it is not the language ... it's what happens in-between. Then again I may not be doing NLP at all ...
anat LOL
Jonathan Well... I certainly agree with that, Joe... the words in language itself is only 8% of the communication that happens between us in person. And I think greatness with NLP or with anything requires a greater sense of trust in our unconscious abilities and our.. central selves...
finter Bandler says in his early books that 'to much understanding' can limit learning
ethonics you'd have no trouble getting more than a few 'trainers' to agree with you on that one ;-)))
follie i think learning to trust oneself takes a lot of work - it's not easy
anat I don't have to understand *everything*... but I like to have words to hang my experiences on...even when the words are just "coat hooks"
Jonathan So perhaps this... Joe... is similar to what you mean when you propose we find an ideal state -- a GDS or mythogenic self...?
follie to truly trust oneself, that is
Occum Well one of the tough things is that experience is so information dense, and NLP is about experience.
ethonics finter ... Now you're quoting RB about too much understanding. You've obviously read the stuff ... now tell me ... it's like we're old friends already ... what do YOU want??? Let's see if I can walk my talk.
finter well i've only been into this stuff a few weeks :) I want to fix a 'broken person' ;0
ethonics anat ... this is the trap of the intellectual and the educated ... I know I'm on touchy ground ... but nature never hurts the one who loves her ... (R.F.)
anat Wot, the coat hooks?
Jonathan People aren't broken, finter! They may not be practicing ideal behaviors..... at this time....
ethonics finter ... WHO??? Are we talking about you??? If not let's start there ... and I'll suggest we think in terms like ... they ain't broken ... just out of touch with what works. Anat ... the language ... the understanding (or it's illusion) ... and yes the coat hooks ... give them up ...
finter yes me - I was making a joke about what Bandler dislikes - the term a Broken Person!!
anat uh oh... the camel and the needle again...
ethonics So what is it you want -finter??? How do you know yourself to be when you are whole??? Think about it ... I'm not looking for fancy words and an accurate description to fact ... rather how you know in yourself this is true.
finter I feel it. I dont think you can put that into words. Its a feeling that goes behind everthing else
ethonics anat ... the scene that's always done it for me is at the end of Indiana Jone and the Quest for the Holy Grail ... when he must ... beyond all reason take a leap of faith ... he's gone further than his reason can take him ...
finter like the colour a painter paints onto his canvas before he starts
ethonics finter ... I agree completely ... where ... do you feel it??? Start at your finger tips ... go up the arms and connect this to the core ... you'll know it when you find it/
anat yes. I understand ... uh... I feel what you're saying... and I think you are right...how, I wonder, does one let go of it...
ethonics anat ... you have something else which is so real you can afford to ...
anat yes. be-ing.
ethonics Bill Moyer's was interviewing Joseph Campbell for the Power of Myth series ... at one point he asked him something like, "Joseph after all this you must in your own way believe ...", after a long, lingering pause Joseph Campbell said, "I don't need belief, I have experience." finter ... come back up and out ... it doesn't take that long ....
finter I dont know what I'm looking for
ethonics or are you beginning to get something in there ... something beyond words ... before language ... something you like ... even better than 'understanding' ...
anat yes
ethonics finter .. you're not supposed to be looking at all ... you felt it remember ...what you'd felt ... then put all of your illusions aside and put all of you attention on it ... and tell me where you feel it. It's okay to use a code word for it.
finter All i find is anxiety
finter I'm stuck for words
ethonics finter ... if you go looking you find ... anxiety ... and my guess ... we're pretty far away from one another ... is that in this you are an expert ... all I'm asking is for you to put it aside ... not give it up ... just put it aside long enouth to feel yourself where you begin ... before words ...
follie joe, are you asking finter to look for a physical place on the body? ... or in the body?
ethonics finter ... good ... just find the feeling and make up a word that you like and call it that ... follie ... yes ... it's all stored in the body process ...
Jonathan (let me ask others to please hold back for a moment, and let Joe work with finter a bit longer here)
finter I cant seem to dig throught the 'turf' but the colour of the canvas changes from day to day hour to hour
ethonics I'm going to guess again that when he goes to ground, he will find that there's areas of relaxation and areas of contractions ...
finter yeah, there is, there are holes to that
ethonics finter ... good where's the relaxation ... forget everything else for a few more minutes
finter through the layer of anxiety; its beneath that; beneath the first coat of paint
ethonics find the deepest relaxation in you ... and go there now ... just deep enough ... and no deeper ...
finter its the canvas itself; its me
ethonics how big is this in terms of physical dimension ...
finter 70% but i can experience 90% if I was to do this for an hour maybe
ethonics and where is it's center ...
finter in my chest; in my heart
ethonics it's just a point I'm referring to finter ... just a point no bigger than your finger tip
msjil are you in love finter?
finter yeah its there, that in-love feeling
ethonics where's that point at the very center of your relaxation ..
finter betwewen my ribs
ethonics perfect ... do you understand this????
finter I'm not sure, not really
ethonics you don't have too ... it just is ...
finter the centre point shifts around
ethonics so let it begin more to move through the layers up ... to the surface experience we call language ... and give it a name ... what do you want to call the center moving point???
finter my GDS. no -- Its just relaxation ... like when someone massages your shoulder
ethonics finter ... just relaxation ...
finter yeah; my GDS isn't relaxation though
ethonics who's there with you ... (just kidding) ...
finter I'm alone ;)
ethonics and when you operate through this point ... relaxation ... what's the experience like ... who are you like this??? finter ... this isn't visual ... just a reminder.
finter I dont understand - I'm really sorry
ethonics You're doin' fine ... and it's not that serious ... to be right ...
finter Sorry Joseph i'm stuck. What is it you want me to do?
ethonics What you now know is that there are areas of relaxation with a center moving point, yes?
finter Yes. The point moves to whichever part of my body I am concious of.
ethonics and this is 70 -90% and yet you can't hold it .... always, yes?
finter no
ethonics then what???
finter it can spread out from a simple point, but then when i am aware of it it shrinks down to a point on another part of my body. It keeps going like this. I could expand the point to 90% but i wouldn't be able to type.
At this point Joe met with network trouble.
Jonathan I'm going to attempt to close gracefully here... and Joseph can finish the chat himself if the network issues are resolved in time. Finter...
finter yes
Jonathan what I believe Joseph is working to elicit within you... is an ideal state... a state of being...
finter aha
Jonathan from which all things are possible and optimally accessed and dealth with; and to create a sense of trust (not necessarily understanding, but comfort and trust) in that state!
finter yeah
Jonathan Does everyone (not just finter) understand this at a basic level? (y/n)
anat n.
follie y, i think so
finter I have difficulty with that. Do you mean the clour of the canvas? The state that lies beneath all others?
pouch y
Jonathan Beyond the above (for which I hope I'm near to Joe's intentions) I will not presume to know what he was specifically intending... And I will not presume to understand exactly where he was heading... (even if I'd be really close) but it does seem clear to me that this is a highly useful state from which to handle the world.
Jonathan FOLKS! I now have joseph on the phone with me now! Strangely, he can see everything we're typing but his IRC client won't let him type. He'd like to type thru me -- in closure! hold on... This is too funny!
anat wow...channeling Joseph Riggio...
ethonics Finter... when you mentioned that you could get it... And spread it... Or shrink it down...
finter Yep
ethonics You went directly TO it. And when you have it, what's it like?
finter Yep. It's like my leg is... like jello... warm but at the same time cold
ethonics This is the beginning! What I do is experiential, and defies language, so what you've begun is to access outside of language, and this is an opening to experience.
finter yeah
ethonics I think this is what NLP was is and will be. Any final questions quickly?
follie I'd like to continue this another time, and find out where we take what we've learned tonight. But that's too big for a quick question.
anat Tell Joe thank you... and ask him if he'll do another one sometime...
ethonics Well folks, we're way beyond.... the GDS.... Lets' save it for another time... if you invite me, I'll come....
Jonathan AND, I WILL invite him again soon! We'll do a part 2!
anat great!!!
pouch yes, please!
follie super
Jonathan Time to say goodnight officially... but BEFORE WE DO.... I'd like to announce to people interested in Joe's events... to find out more about when Joe is available in person.... go to http://www.appliednlp.com, and click on the Calendar button! You can also email him here: jsriggio@appliednlp.com or from the site directly....
ethonics Thanks everyone!
pouch thanks Joe
follie thanks, joe (clap,clap,clap)
anat thanks Joe... it was helpful... and amazing!!
finter Jonathan, can i ask Joseph something.. about his upcomming London Seminar? In August? I want to come
Jonathan Email him directly, please. He'll be happy to answer you directly....
finter Great, cheerz Joe
Jonathan OK! Joe's gone... I wanted to thank everyone for participating, of course.
anat This was great, Jon!
Jonathan It was fun to watch him do some nice work.... We will do a part II with Joe sometime soon
anat yea!!
follie the sooner, the better, so we don't lose this flow...
Jonathan For those of you who haven't checked out my website lately, do -- I've added a bunch of material, the bookstore page now has Book Cover Images, and the upcoming Fall Seminars in NYC, Washington DC, Toronto, Los Angeles, & Atlanta are getting lots of attention & signups -- we're going to have a BLAST! I'm going to say a quick official goodnight.... and then hang out informally to chat a bit...
IRC CHAT OVER!

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