Learning NLP: How Best to Learn NLP - NLP Chat

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How Best to Learn NLP

IRC Chat Log, April 26, 1998

How Best to Learn NLP?
Jonathan OK folks thanks for showing up, joining the crowd and doing something to take your skills a little bit further towards what it is that you do not know you already do very well, some of the time! How many of you LEARN CERTAIN THINGS, REALLY WELL? (y/n)
Questor_ hmmm
Stefan, Tiger-, Questor_, sigabrt y
Jonathan OK cool.
ORI`gami y/n
Jonathan And I bet that at the times you'd qualify as having learning something really really well, that there were certain qualities of the experience that were present at that time! Like, maybe you felt you were really at ease, or maybe you felt like you were having fun, or maybe you learned best when you put a lot of pressure on yourself, or whatever.
Jonathan And it might vary from experience to experience, or not.
ORI`gami feels like when you are in love
Jonathan But the most important thing is, its either somewhat different or very different, for each of us & between each of us. Sometimes it does, ORI, that's a GREAT one! I like it! And I'll start from this point, and come back to it at the end, is that the best way to learn NLP -- from a 40,000 foot, Bird's Eye, BIG CHUNK point of view, is the way that is best for YOU. And I want you to pat yourself on the back, and admit that no one, not I, nor any other trainer around... KNOWS WHAT'S BEST FOR YOU. YOU ARE YOUR OWN BEST JUDGE! I and other trainers, from the best possible position, are no more than guides through material that you may not yet be familiar with... so as you learn more about NLP -- or any other subject -- I want you to do whatever it takes to dispel the myth that says you HAVE to do anything someone else's way. Can we start from there? What do you say? How do you feel about it? (let's get any initial questions out of the way). OK! Well, I guess without any questions, I'll just move forward...
Tranzpupy move forward.
Jonathan There are SO many things you can do to learn NLP!
Jonathan The choices are obvious:
(1) Training's
(2) Videotapes
(3) Audio Tapes
(4) Books/Magazines/Websites & Articles
(5) Chat rooms, Mailing Lists, USENET Newsgroups
(7) Private study, memorization, etc
Tranzpupy I want it ALL
Jonathan and on & on. And there's the most room for growth and experimentation in (1), (6) & (7) -- in my opinion. So let's go through each of them in a slightly different order and discuss our experiences with each of them! Does this seem like a reasonable way to go forward (y/n)? The reason for asking is because this chat is about discussing the best ways to learn effective use of NLP in our lives. And each of our experiences have been/ may be different, so all these differences are where the richness of variety leads to each of our greater growth!
Tranzpupy y
Grendal right... I prefer a combo ;)
Jonathan Well, a combo is definitely the ideal choice, Grendal! But lets deal with each one separately for the moment. Part of NLP is about modeling things that work, taking the process apart into specifics that work, then re-assembling them, so to speak, so that we know they'll work when we stop thinking about how we've changed our methods! OK! So.... Lets talk about books.

Books, Magazines, Web sites, Articles
Grendal otay ;)
Jonathan You can CERTAINLY learn passively from books, Seminar transcripts, articles, magazines, etc., about OTHER people's ideas of how NLP is supposed to work, and about tools that have worked for other people, but that's passive learning, isn't it?
Grendal yep, it's a great way to get others thought..and see how they work...then make them work for you..
Jonathan And Most people read silently, and in a specific position, seated or laying down, so they often lock in those learning's into certain positions... Sure. But the moment you take the learning out into a specific situation and USE it, playing with it to see how it works... is the moment you're not learning from books anymore, right?
Grendal Nope..you took an idea from the book..and ran with it..
Jonathan So, from Books, do you EVER get experiential knowledge? In my opinion, the answer is NO, but you do get a representation of other people's experiential knowledge!
Grendal I agree ;)
Jonathan And it may or may not fit with your map. But there's something else. Most people read silently, which uses how much of your body & how many internal rep systems (leaving out how many rep systems are hit with the vocalization). We know that people learn better when they use more of their body, and when MORE representational systems are involved. It links things in more, integrates them more!
Tranzpupy I like your idea of reading out loud
Grendal hmmm...Interesting and very intriguing. ;)
Jonathan I don't read the newspaper or magazines out loud of course, but NLP Transcript-type books -- I do! Like:
Reframing (old material)
Using Your Brain...For A Change
Frogs Into Princes
Tranzpupy hmmph! Frogs into PrinCESSES, please
somnus hmm
Jonathan You just keep that hallucination going, Tranzpupy, feel freeeeee! OK, so, moving on -- How MANY of you enjoy learning from books? I do, I'll be the first to say so -- but they're really a small part of my study process. I'm *really* interested in getting multiple views here... what works for you?
Grendal I like to get new ideas form book..and then develop them via personal research and testing...
somnus I like learning from books
sigabrt its different for different types of learning
Jonathan Definitely, SIG, glad you mentioned that.
Tranzpupy I like learning from books, and sometimes
somnus For experiential things, though, like sports or NLP, I need a bit more, though
Jonathan I'll focus mostly on NLP learning, here, though, SIG.
Tranzpupy I can just actualize it,
Stefan I think books are a good place to start, it gives you the theory. Then, to really get good at something I have to actually do it, play with it.
sigabrt for intellectual learning, books are fine... for using something in the real world, books are somewhat lacking
Tranzpupy and sometimes I need to see/feel it, like in a training... or chat
somnus what you get from books is "head knowledge"
Jonathan I'd agree. Books are a great reference, but they don't replace real-world PERSONAL experience. They can't give you your own experience, though they CAN lead your imagination into creating or revisiting incredible memories...
Tranzpupy a little head knowledge is good.
Jonathan Sure.
Grendal right ;)
somnus true
Jonathan But intellectual knowledge of NLP without effective USAGE skills is little more than folly. If you can't USE it, well, its like not showing up.
Tranzpupy and you USE it during a training...
Jonathan OK. So Books are important, we know that. A lot of NLP knowledge can be gained by reading books, but book information by itself almost NEVER translates itself into "How do I effectively use this information, NOW" without integration using other processes!!! So... lets move on to another area of learning...
somnus that's true

Audio Tapes (now CDs & MP3s!)
Jonathan Which are GREAT because you can listen to many of them while driving, while working out... you can OPTIMIZE YOUR TIME by learning NLP as you do other things!
somnus the idea is good...
Jonathan And there ARE a lot of good tapes available. Almost TOO many to choose from!
Stefan I you haven't got the opportunity to learn from a teacher in person, you can learn things like intonation of embedded commands. Also, the marking out of words connects the ideas in a better way IMHO
somnus I don't have any NLP tapes, but audio tape learning has never worked that good for me in the past.
Jonathan Bandler's Personal Enhancement set (also known as the NeuroSonics tapes) is phenomenal!
Tranzpupy somnus:I used to not like learning from audio... then
Jonathan And the Persuasion Engineering DVD Set is really good.
Tranzpupy I just put it in the background...
Jonathan Here are some others -- Michael Brooks' Instant Rapport tape version of his book is an excellent entry into NLP material, but is pretty basic about how it covers VAKOG strategies. OK. But the absolute best tapes on NLP.... that you can get anywhere... are the tapes that YOU YOURSELF CAN/WOULD make.... if you recorded your own voice reading NLP books to yourself!!!
Tranzpupy kewl
Jonathan And then listened to them on your own while working out or maybe walking to class or driving (for non-trance material)... Because how much of your brain/body and how many rep-systems do you then involve as you've read the book and heard your OWN voice both internally and externally? Like the idea? (y/n)?
Tranzpupy, Grendal, somnus y
Tranzpupy mmmm. is there any Bandler that's non-trance?
Jonathan Very little of Bandler's material is non-trancy! OK, so... if you want other tape recommendations, feel free to ask me after the chat! Moving on!

Video Tapes (now DVDs, & online video!)
Jonathan Bandler has a few new videotapes out -- recorded in London --
(1) an Evening with Richard Bandler
(2 & 3) State of the Art I & II -- Bandler on NLP training. And they're AWESOME. There's a TON of old Richard Bandler videos available from various sources (I recommend you pick up whatever you can, they may not be available much longer through those sources). There's the Tony Robbins stuff, but, how far does that material really go in the training of NLP? And there are of COURSE lots of other videos available through a number of training organizations. Videos are, IMHO, better than books and better than tapes, because you get to add in your own Visual external rep-system experience, with AUDITORY external. And you can REWIND -- whereas the people who were there at the time of the filming didn't have that luxury! What videos do people recommend -- if you have any good sets?
Tranzpupy no
Stefan I don't have any at all.
Jonathan No one else here has NLP DVD's they've enjoyed? I have several sets I enjoy; here are just a few examples:
(1) Dilts: Strategies of Genius.
(2) Dilts: Sleight of Mouth
(3) Bandler: Bandler Doing Bandler (a hypnosis weekend training)
Zell Are those DVD's you mentioned listed on the web somewhere?
Jonathan Zell -- visit the Southern Institute of NLP for some of those older videos.
Tranzpupy I have Sleight of Mouth, but haven't seen it all yet
Jonathan yes, it takes a bit of time to get through!!! OK -- so DVD's are EXCELLENT -- but not practical always, because we can't spend our lives in front of the tube, and besides, who would want to? NLP is about experience, not, couch time! I think videos are great, though. You can set up parties with your local NLP friends, if you have any, and watch the videos together sharing what you each notice. Its a great way to learn. Which leads me into...

Jonathan And there are so many different kinds of training's to choose from. You can do a practitioner training. You can do a master practitioner training. You can go to weekend trainings with a variety of people, covering a wide range of topics. You can attend a Presentation Skills training! And there are a LOT of other people who have used NLP to create training's under different titles than NLP-related, but still used NLP to produce the results.
Tranzpupy Whoa. Explain that the result of USING NLP....
Jonathan Kevin Trudeau's Mega-Memory course and other materials -- for example -- they have infomercials... which are chock full of NLP in how they market their materials, to get you to buy their products!
Grendal I bought that today ;) haha..funny ;)
Jonathan But as for training's, well, its a caveat emptor market. And different training's are marketed in different ways.

Chat Rooms, Mailing Lists, Newsgroups
Tranzpupy here we are
Jonathan There's Usenet Newsgroup alt.psychology.nlp! There's the email lists NLPTALK & MINDLIST. There are other email lists as well. And then, there's here... (Editor's Sept/2001 addition: And now there's Steve Boyley's Voice Chats as well!)
Tranzpupy we are!
Jonathan This is an EXCELLENT TIME for people still actively monitoring this channel, for people to provide feedback on how much/little they've learned from being here, and reading the chat-logs on my web site!
Tranzpupy I've read and re-read the logs & I think they are a really good way to find out what I don't know, & a pretty good way to learn new stuff.
Stefan This category is one that is interactive, while books, tapes and videos are not. You can discuss so many topics, get quick feedback on ideas.
Jonathan Sure! More ACTIVE participation in the learning process! Other comments? Join in folks -- this is where the chat gets GOOOOOD
Tranzpupy The logs make me want to learn more... sometimes I find out something I know is something someone else didn't know... and that validates the work I have done...
Grendal Chat is great...it's nice to get instant feedback and idea....similar to books in the fact that you still need to integrate them via personal exp..
Jonathan Yes
Stefan And you can work together with other people to reach a common goal. Two brains are often more than the sum of its parts. That's something I believe IRC is especially good for.
Jonathan What other kinds of things would people like to see covered in future chats here?
Tosha1 I want to learn nlp... I just don't know how...
Tref fractionation?
Tranzpupy wow
Jonathan Fractionation. What other topics?
Tranzpupy yes. fractionalization...
Tref establishing rep types with speed and accuracy
Grendal hrm...
Tref direct application in business?
Jonathan Rapid Awareness of Rep Systems... There are lots of Business Applications, but that's a good idea... Any other good future chat topics?
Tref monitoring depth of rapport?
Jonathan Depth of Rapport! Now that's a GOOD ONE! OK, well, those are some good ideas.

Personal Experience & Exploration
Jonathan I think this is almost the most important area of How Best to Learn NLP... because if you don't... commit to playing with the tools you're learning, in a focused way, make time for, structure situations in which you can use the skills, then pay attention to the responses you receive... then HOW will you ever begin the process of recognizing all the ways to integrate the use of NLP into your entire life? Because its not as though there's a separate self that studies NLP from the self which never uses it. Then you're compartmentalizing NLP away into a place where it gets stowed on the shelf. Then you're just talking about it, and whats the point?
Tranzpupy I know some people who've studied it, and who I think don't use it...
Tref well put... nice languaging.
Jonathan But if you... FOLD IT INTO YOUR LIFE... and play with it... enjoy its use, and use it to create positive results for yourself and others... all while learning whats more effective and less effective, then... you're really beginning to build a catalog of memories where YOU'VE TRIED AND USED THE SKILLS with real people... and that's absolutely KEY, in my opinion, to being able to say you're learning how to use NLP to enhance your life, aren't you!
Tref make it a part of your subConscious.. like tying your shoes, or driving your car... through extended conscious use?
Tosha1 What is everyone's favorite nlp tool, something that you use in your everyday lives? I like meta-model and sleight of mouth... also criteria elicitation...but that's not nlp...
Jonathan Tosha -- might you be missing the big picture? Just one tool is.. well... it could be beside the point...
Tosha1 Hmm, I guess I am
Jonathan I agree that you have to get concrete to move forward... but see the forest for the trees!
Tref i think many get caught up in the methods, and lose the intention/attitude
Jonathan If you commit to doing it, then you will, and you'll choose the specific tool at the right time for what you wish to explore further! ...Based on what you know at that time! (I agree, Tref, in some cases)
Tranzpupy you have to give up something to really use NLP
Jonathan Have an ABSOLUTE BLAST, first & foremost. Do it for fun, do it for learning. And DO IT!
Tref what... self conciousness?
Tranzpupy yeah, and self-deceit, and alot of other not-so-great things...
Tref this is good..
Jonathan Whether you pick "embedded commands" to work on, or "tonality" or "softeners" in a given conversation... doesn't matter... just... as you read, listen, and train, take what you're learning and commit to using it IN YOUR EXISTING PRESENT-DAY life!!!
Tranzpupy But you get a LOT in return... and I'm just beginning...
Tref agreed
Jonathan And bring your questions and explorations to one of the interactive environments for results discussion, etc.
Tranzpupy I've been using it...
Stefan And when learning NLP skills, playing with innocent guinepigs... other persons I mean, keeping track of multiple aspects is really hard, thus a good strategy would be to take one thing at a time, like having theme weeks?
Jonathan It is certainly true that this is the process you undergo in a training -- you get the experiential knowledge, but not everyone can up & go to a training, even though they so often pay for themselves, -- and also, its not as if the learning ends there. Right Tranzpupy? ;)
Tref i am a little concerend about the "subjects" upon which we train... is there any chance of damage to them?
Jonathan I suggest FLASH CARDS, STEFAN!
ORI`gami of course
Tranzpupy absolutely right. I started *really* learning after the training, and I had left the training thinking I knew it all (grin)
Jonathan Create flash-cards of each of the skills you learn, and flip through them periodically. Choose one card to play with for each day or each conversation. As far as damage... Tref... NLP should NEVER HURT! NLP is about creating MORE options for everyone, not less options, and not ONLY your options.
Tref yes... changes that do not really enhance, through ineffective intallation, or misundrestanding.
Stefan I borrowed a Zebu deck.
Tranzpupy be careful. We are responsible for the people we NLP
Tref kinda like an "accidental" post-hypnotic suggestion
Jonathan Its NOT about control, its about influence. The moment you ASSUME or mind-read that it always works... is the moment it doesn't and you have to laugh about it, or you'll get waaaay too serious! And seriousness is one of these things that gets out of hand, so.... never mind about that... (yes, tref)
Tosha1 NLP should never hurt whom?
Tref o-kay..
Jonathan ANYONE, Tosha! For that question to arise presupposes a win-lose philosophy!
Tref never hurt anyone..
Tosha1 why not?
Stefan Tosha: Our training subjects. Be responsible, create win/win outcomes.
Jonathan sooooo... I suggest remembering that if you're using NLP with people, and you find your skills of influence going through the roof, remember that people under your influence are under your protection.
Tranzpupy I'm interested in what you think should and should not be memorized
Jonathan Can you be more specific in your question?
Tranzpupy sure. What should be memorized? patterns? jargon?
Stefan Me and a friend of mine found that instead of learning patterns like "People can, Tranzpupy, {command here}" it was much more flexible to learn a set of "milton words"
Tranzpupy yeah, that's what I meant...
Stefan By that I mean: Awareness words: Aware, realize, know. Adverbs: Simple, easy, deeply.Nominalization : Smile, Love, Communication, calmness. Etc.
Tranzpupy ok
Tosha1 18 most powerful words...
Jonathan Patterns are good for study. But I don't like patterns for real live conversational flow. I do study the flexible use of specific word patterns, though.
Stefan Then you pick a few of each category, and voila, you have a cool sentence.
Tranzpupy well, you mentioned memorization at the top.
Jonathan True, I did.
Tranzpupy example, please? I wondered what to memorize.
Jonathan What's it like when... People... become aware... of the passing flow of time? How can someone just... begin to recognize how when things... slow down... then... one can... discover something of importance...
Tranzpupy oh. Thanks
Jonathan I might memorize the different pieces, and then use a variety of different pieces within an overall flow of language designed to get a certain effect..
Tranzpupy so a piece is "of the passing flow of time"?
Jonathan a VERY certain effect. If I want an uncertain effect, I might use different patterns, and you may know what I'm talking about
Stefan Ok, I have a few examples written down (in Swedish, will translate). Luckily, you might already feel how, a smiling naturally starts to emerge, even before we have continued to learn each other.
Jonathan Become aware... of... [text block] whatever.
Tranzpupy the whole text block?
Jonathan Stefan -- that had some nice pacing & leading fragments all wrapped up together... with time distortion as well.
Tref short.. then more pattern language..
Stefan And that is mostly due to that, fortunately communication starts even before you are aware of it... And on and on... It was just an example of language patterns, nothing to TAKE SERIOUSLY ;)

Private Study
Jonathan Now... for the integration of all of the above...
Jonathan remember what I said in the beginning?
Tosha1 it's not a tool ... its a lifestyle!
Jonathan I mentioned at the top, that above all, what works for you may be different than what works for someone else!
Tref agreed.. awareness and communication start BEFORE you are conscious of it.
Jonathan So I want to start and stop from the place which validates the quality and the importance of our own experiences! I remember as I was learning NLP that early on, I felt ineffective with many of the skills, and there are still times when that happens. What did you do when you felt ineffective? But as you learn from others, if you're lucky to find trainers who will encourage self-sufficiency, remember that they do not "give" you these magical skills, ideally, they structure a learning environment wherein you get to learn it all on your own, in terms of your own experiential capabilities.
Tranzpupy well said
Jonathan Its not something that can be given, in a way that automatically integrates with your behavior. Only by learning it yourself, and taking the responsibility for a lot of the learning, can you also -maintain the self-respect that comes from developing your own mastery with it all... So I want you to explore all of the above methods if you can. Try them all on yourself... CATALOG the responses and effectiveness of each method of learning... maximize your productivity and time...
Tranzpupy there's that journal again
Jonathan Work the process of discovering mastery inside yourself... into your daily schedule if you can, and stay in touch with other students to help each other progress towards your goal of developing skills mastery. Above all, celebrate... YOURSELF!
Tref kinda like magick and a book of shadows..
Tranzpupy I like that part.
Jonathan {clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap} ...standing to applaud all of you...
Tranzpupy {loud applause for Jonathan -- and for all of us}
Jonathan Thanks! I hope you enjoyed all of the material we covered tonight!

And at some point, even thought the road to understanding might be confusing sometimes, when that catalog is big enough for a certain technique, you have mastered that technique.

my applause to Jonathan as well. Hmm, I think that might be a good motivating way to think about it.

Jonathan OK -- thanks to everyone for coming, again... this was a fun one! I'll schedule another chat soon -- probably with one of the topics we tossed about earlier tonight!


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