Everyday NLP; Practical NLP for Every Day Use - NLP Chat

Practical NLP for Every Day Use.

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Everyday NLP

IRC Chat Log, March 19, 1998

Everyday NLP!
Jonathan OK folks -- welcome to the channel for another in the SERIES of chats here... This one's more open ended than some...! I wanna talk about specifically how can we use SIMPLE NLP Techniques EASILY AND NATURALLY over the course of every day, in between conversations, while we're driving (or waiting at lights), while we're talking with friends and loved ones...
RodMunch sounds good to me
MetaMan Have you ever...
RodMunch getting stopped by the cops
wendi I have a question....could be a topic... looking for one? Kids and NLP
galamud heeeheeee =)
Jonathan while getting intimate (whoops! that was last chat topic!), right before you go to sleep.... etc.... and it occurs to me that what do I do the most of every day... but take care of errands. Or simple tasks.
Dan_26 everyday. . . integrating skill into the routine contexts that are an integral part of life
galamud dan, that was a superb mix of terms I don't understand =)
Dan_26 how about if we start with the morning, beginning the day, awakening
Jonathan Morning is a good Time!!!!

Jonathan What are some of the things some of you do -- to brighten up your day...
galamud is this a good time for us to jump in, right now?
wendi so, it's morning ...now what?
MetaMan I do spinal energy lingustics in the morning and night all ways
Jonathan to plan for a better time/life/day etc
galamud kick ass, I predicted it! =)
Dan_26 galamud, i excel at that, have a nominalization from my bag'o nom's
RodMunch I listen to death metal to brighten my day
galamud thank you, don't mind if I do! I'll take this pretty red one.
Jonathan Can we take the side comments OUT of the chat, please.
misjief I anchor myself with some male scratching... it is a ritual
wendi I go back to bed
Dan_26 how about waking up itself. . . motivating yourself to get out of bed once the alarm goes off, first thought?
Jonathan HAH!
Stygian What are spinal energy lingustics?
Jonathan Wendi -- thats funny! And as you drift back to sleep... what do you daydream about?
RodMunch Dan: good one
Designer1 I think about my goals, people that inspire me.
wendi sorry! oooh, waking
Dan_26 nice jonathan :)
MetaMan they are statements that get the spine and your body to self-align
Jonathan Goals... people...
Dan_26 bandler/grinder mentioning having to urinate as a joke, but seriously. . .
galamud I sleep as late as I possibly can, then I get up, dress quickly, put in my contacts, jump in the car and pop in a lovely Ben Folds Five tape, until I get really perky and start singing along. Then I'm ready for the day.
wendi dream about waking up? hows that for a strategy? Actually sometimes in the morning I close my eyes and just tell myself I will feel really energizied in 10 minutes
Dan_26 daily duties and responsibilities usually get me awake, i think of what needs to be done and get up so i can do it
Styg I drink caffine. It wakes me up in the morning.
misjief that doesn't work me- I dream I am at work - boss notices i am not
MetaMan that's one level of living what about the rest
wendi party pooper
Howard I wake right up and then try to stay oblivious for the next hour or so...
galamud Coke in the morning makes me feel queasy, and I can't stand coffee, so I have to find other ways to get in a good mood.
Jonathan Sure, caffeine is a MAJOR anchor for some people. I think HABIT & RITUAL is half the reason for Decaf coffee in the 1st place.
wendi get up do ya dan? like how up? I look forward to the shower. I get really anxious to get in the shower
Dan_26 i'm focus on the moment you become aware that a new day has begun, before your eyes open, before you get up, before the caffiene?
Jonathan Neat, Wendi....... HOW do you get really anxious to get in the shower?
wendi I get answers to my questions in the shower -- like help with clients, inspirations. I write commercials. how, hmmmm... I feel the hot water on my (naked) body. I think about what I might hear that will help my with my day, I sometimes hear answers in the shower; sometimes take the coffee in with me :)
Stygian caffeine is a chemical anchor
Dan_26 (wishing we could have explored the awakening hour more, i'll just follow the group though :)
Jonathan And as you... feel the hot water on your naked body, is it your voice internally or other people's voices?
misjief That would get me up..... imagining wendi in the shower (sorry couldn't resist)
wendi And if I am feeling good, i sing. I always know I am not feeling so well if I am not singing. Other people's...
RodMunch I'm with you dan, I'd like to figure a way to avoid shutting off the alarm clock in my sleep and dozing too long
Jonathan I like that CONTRAST of temperature in my stomach/throat vs. whats OUTSIDE me when I take a drink in the shower.
wendi it is like their... HA! I am sorry you stopped my fingers dead on the keyboard
Jonathan The contrast can be a WONDERFUL set of sensations. I wonder how that would/could help us to improve our state... didn't it?
MetaMan wondering how many imaginations of wendi actually match wendi
wendi so, there is like this voice that comes in from above
MetaMan like me
wendi It's so boring to shave my legs every time. How can we make that a little more interesting?
galamud remember the threat of cutting yourself!
MetaMan Connect it to an orgasm that you have at the end with every stroke leading you up to completion in more wasy then one
Designer1 Theory: Hot shower on her naked body releases pleasures in her body, which relax her mind (put her into a light trance), she has better concentration, no distractions around...
galamud Never mind, I like metaman's better.
Jonathan OK we're back to Sex...
MetaMan Jon when did we ever really leave? I am a sex junkie, but hey, it's legal!
wendi Actually, an NLP Trainer once suggested that I spend two extra minutes in the shower, every morning. Dont remember what else he said, but I do that every morning.
RodMunch Hmmm, can we discuss how to link orgasms to shaving?
Jonathan Well why not, Sex is a great anchor & has MANY associations.

misjief we could reframe hair legs as a good thing
wendi Oh, boy. We are going there, are we?
Designer1 oh man
Dan_26 imagine how beautiful your legs will look once they have been shaved, and keep that image in your mind until the external matches the internal
Jonathan Alright guys, settle down ---
galamud lunch has always been a big deal to me!
Jonathan and think about some of the situations you got yourself in earlier this week... which were less than effective moments...
wendi if I start having orgasms while shaving ...y'all are in trouble
MetaMan After lunch is an excelletn time to walk and do mind frames
galamud I have my best ideas at lunch. And in the shower.
Jonathan like, arguments with working colleagues...
MetaMan wendi..I said AFTER
Jonathan internal dialogue...
galamud And sometimes I just walk around outside and enjoy the weather.
Jonathan Cool, weather ;)
wendi whats a mind frame? Me and galaud in the shower? Having ideas?
galamud is that an invitation? =) if it is, I am THERE!
MetaMan the games one does with perception/anchors/meta pgrs/ levels.. etc
wendi Oh, meta. Hey are you Kevin? maybe............
Designer1 BBL...idling
MetaMan hey, how big is this shower
Jonathan Its a pretty big shower.
misjief u eat lunch in the shower?? are we all there?
wendi if only you knew the path to this shower, (big enuf)
Howard I'm throwing the soap up. Let's see who catches it.
RodMunch I'm still curious as to how to link shaving to orgasm? I wouldn't mind having that anchor in there somewhere.
MetaMan does kevin get in the shower
Jonathan What kinds of little tricks can you play internally... to improve behavior... on a more regular basis? In the shower, of course, to keep this topical.
galamud kind of like that seinfeld where kramer does everything in the shower =)
wendi no, no lunch; soggy sandwich bad. Are you kevin?
MetaMan i have a powerful one...
Jonathan Yes?
misjief lets play a game of naked twister - we guys have an unfair advantage tho (think about it)
wendi that was tooo funny. he should wonder
Dan_26 hot/cold water in the face works well for a refreshing state change
Howard Shower is my intuition time. I let my mind roam over problems and solve them.
galamud no comment!
Jonathan EXCELLENT Dan...
wendi honey, swish your powerful one over here. (just trying to stay on topic!) I guess I dont have the market on shower inspiration
MetaMan ok here is a useful one...
RodMunch there is a topic here?
Jonathan instant break-state & powerful state change! There IS a topic here.
wendi I think someone oughta invent a shower computer, so I can type out my ideas while they are still fresh. I was thinking kevin hogan
Dan_26 awake, brush teeth, splash cold water in face, shower--hot water in face (again, that mixture of hot/cold sensations we mentioned earlier)
Jonathan We're looking for the little golden nuggets of instant NLP tools & fun you can have, in any given situation...
misjief J- have you ever given yourself a suggestion that you would do such and such the second you heard the alarm go off
wendi yes there is a topic -- It is... how can you shave your legs and do NLP in the shower and.....
Jonathan And the ATTITUDE of looking for all the wonderful ways in which you can... ENJOY the search for how much you haven't yet done to absorb LIFE in a wonderful way...
RodMunch OK I guess most of this is over my head. I haven't followed any little golden nuggets of instant NLP tools & fun you can have, in any given situation...
Jonathan is the pervasive attitude of living NLP skills at the core...
MetaMan he's actually my neighbor and we play hypno-fuck-with your mind games he's got a sense of humor
misjief I wake up in the showere wondering how i got there
Dan_26 i would really like to at some point now go back to the moment of awakening and elicit various strategies for awakening
RodMunch I'm with Dan
Jonathan to improve ALL of life by going FIRST into an amazing state... of exploration... and looking at the world with WONDERMENT at some point NOW
Dan_26 ;)
Questor_ I've got one Jonathan...
wendi How about michael. Do we have a michael in the house? My world just doesnt feel like wonderment too much
Jonathan ummm... just for that let's do it later
Jonathan Go for it QUESTOR
Howard Jonathan: that's the early morning workout shows from the beach.
Dan_26 Mmmmm
Questor_ This is something I've been experiementing with... simple concept really...
wendi It feels like work
MetaMan everyone SHUT UP and Jon and I will share some stuff and you can share back
Jonathan That's one way to quiet everyone, I suppose...
galamud yeah, but I feel insulted now and less likely to appreciate the teachings.
Dan_26 just for that, i'm going to talk lol
Jonathan (whispering to Meta-Man "You play the Bad Guy!")
misjief meta is that persuasion WOW
MetaMan ok...1st. since this is NLP in the daily life... Lets do this one for fun. Take any situation in your mind that is a bother
Questor_ I was talking with some people at work about how fridays feel so different than the rest of the weekdays... I've noticed that people will be joking around a lot, having fun, and say something like, "Wow! You can really tell it's friday!"
Jonathan (2 threads going) Q finish up
wendi i'm gonna go take a shower if you dont hurry up
MetaMan now step mentally back until you have more information in mind about the experiance
Questor_ So I've been working with eliciting submods for friday, and applying them to every day of the week... makes things feel MUCH better, instead of the "monday morning blues"... I'm done; (Jonathan:) I'm finished. :)
MetaMan now...step back again untiul the amount of info you take in is doubled
Jonathan COOL, Questor! (Q hold it until later tho)
MetaMan Q: good one, dude (multi-tracking)
RodMunch meta: when you say step back, do you mean observe the situation as a "Fly on the wall?"
MetaMan now... having stepped back 2x and extended your perception 2x shift..with this knowledge, to 1st, then 2nd then 3rd position. (to Rod:) what ever gets you to back up from the course of action you take or would take

The THREE Positions!
Jonathan CLARIFICATION for newbies here or reading this later!!!! (WAIT) 1st Position - from your own eyes, 2nd Position - from someone else's eyes, 3rd Position - from the fly on the wall position -- seeing all the people in the situation "objectively" (GO AHEAD, Pheonix)!
MetaMan actually I dont like the fly on the wall because angles matter. and it seems to work better if each perception is done at eye level
Jonathan True
MetaMan ok...so some way suggest a situation where something didnt go your way or plan
Jonathan Someone just mentioned to me in a private message, that to them, 2nd position = 3rd position... and I wanted to clarify -- If I'm working thru a conversation in my past that didn't work for me.... 2nd position is through the OTHER person's eyes, looking back at me, head on.
MetaMan 2nd position is poorly understood..i'd like to take few lines here and clear it up what 2nd psotition is effective at achieving
Jonathan 3rd position is outside of the immediate situation and often a wider-angle... sometimes more distant from the actions being remembered (not always) --- go for it Meta
MetaMan when a person is doing 2nd postiion it is not enough to JUST see through anothers eye at you
Jonathan These are useful skills to cover.
misjief isn't the 3rd person non-partial - while 2nd is in the other's shoes so to speak?
Jonathan Yes, misjief, exactly...
MetaMan a mirror or vcr and monitor would do that and that is not that much diff from 3rd postition
Jonathan YES, Meta... Keep going on this point!!!
MetaMan to do 2nd justice it is important to percieve with the values/meta-prgs/filters/breathing rate/body rythym of the other THEN AND ONLY THEN are you really doing 2nd postion. This is something that many have missed in NLP
Dan_26 so 3rd is the only view that is dissociated from being inside someone (you [1st] or the other person [2nd])?
MetaMan From my experience and practice...yes! Everyone try their 2nd position with these new steps..it requires some smart guessing or elictation and I think you'll find the info better suited
Jonathan Yes, Dan I'd agree with this. Now. Lets make this a LITTLE more accessible to people.
MetaMan go for it Ive done my Bandler :)
misjief and if you add others then you go tho their view and one for the impartial or overview
Jonathan 2nd position -- if you're only "seeing" what you think they see, granted, its not really second position. But recognizing that this is where many beginners start from... ALL it takes is to just begin to add in more and more accurate physiological mirroring... more and more accurate meta-program modeling, etc... and as the pieces of the model become more accurate, the more accurate your second position work will become! Does this make sense?
MetaMan it is what is meant when the saying is uttered "walk a mile in anothers moccasin"
misjief yes and no
MetaMan moccasins "conform" to the orginal owners unique foot pattern
Jonathan The MORE you properly & effectively model... the more accurate or USEFUL your observations will be in second position.
MetaMan jon...define modeling for us newbies
Jonathan And if you MOCK a Sin... Forgetta-boutit.
misjief if I think I am ugly - I don't want to put emphasis on that through her eyes - because I will reflect that thought in my actions
Jonathan Modeling is something that is so often defined differently in NLP... Every definition is both truth and lie at the same time. For different people.
Dan_26 oh those nominalizations ;) ya can't put it in a bucket
Jonathan Modeling is about taking on as MUCH as possible of another persons' experience, subjectivity, knowledge, point-of-view, mental processing, etc....
MetaMan clarify the "taking on" part
Jonathan And NLP provides us many models for learning these things... and learning how to model...
misjief j- I love this- at the same time a great trick is to see yourself thru her eyes as you wish to be
Jonathan And NLP provides us many WAYS OF TAKING ON ANOTHER'S STRATEGIES! NOW, the MAGIC, of TAKING 1st POSITION, THEN 2nd POSITION, THEN 3rd POSITION, is in gaining rapidity and flexibility... so as to be able to do it more effectively... because in the IDEAL circumstance for behaving MOST effectively for yourself and others... As a NLP'er... Your top goal in using positions...
MetaMan thats my goal in life and in bed
Jonathan is to be able to see from ALL THREE POSITIONS CONCURRENTLY, easily... and be aware of the implications of your actions from all those points of view. When you get to THAT point... your behavior takes on a WHOLE DIFFERENT DIMENSION....
MetaMan not just see, experiance all 3 perceptional positions
Jonathan of fluidity... rapport... integrated skills... thoughtfulness... strategic intentions... YES, EXPERIENCE....
misjief J- u said everything was a lie.... so shouldn't you be able to exert some choice in the lie you pick
Dan_26 so you must rapidly consider an action, go through all 3 views, and then act according to which action will allow your desired outcome to be met
Jonathan So its NOT necessary to expect that you can do this easily and fast YET until you've spent a little time practicing each one... more and more fully... and then amplifying the experience for yourself...and then moving back and forth... and practicing the speed of the shifting views...
misjief pick a useful one that empowers you rather then a bummer
Jonathan and then learning to see/experience multiple views easily!
Jonathan What can you use these 3 positions for, all day long>? The GOALS of the above... is to recognize circumstances AS they're happening ... and begin to find yourself being more able to pay attention when you're responding to people in less than wonderful ways, and utilize these techniques for learning to come up with NEW ways to respond -- perhaps in ways that you haven't yet discovered or imagined....
MetaMan speaking of which...
wendi I would like to do that. Recognize and change as it happens. That sounds good, especially on the spot.
misjief dig the reframe
Jonathan Because...
wendi I think of one time when I will be observing myself at a task... teaching school
Jonathan what would happen if you're ABOUT to say something really less-than-graceful... and you just STOP... and think about it from your own perspective... model them rapidly and think about it from their perspective... with their hopes, needs, & concerns in mind instead of yours... then...
wendi All it takes is one breath before you speak
Jonathan think about it from the fly-on-the-wall position... and... wonder just what discoveries from all those positions TOGETHER will bring to mind... and how your mouth then opens up, and says something DIFFERENT... of its own accord.... ONE BREATH -- A DEEEEEEEP BREATH
wendi not that kind of breath
Jonathan no? then what?
wendi really, I like to take a breath before I speak. In that time, I decide if it is worth saying.
Howard When I can do that, I will have accomplished my goal in learning NLP.
wendi now, I can take the 3rd position during that breath
Jonathan (BTW -- PHOENIX -- MetaMan... is taking off and wants to say goodbye without interrupting (how polite!) -- I'll say bye-bye from everyone -- (sorry wendi -- I'm listening!)
wendi OK
Jonathan Excellent choice/method...
wendi It might help with my class of 13 year old boys;
misjief that is kinda kewl- timing the positions to the rythem of the breathe
Jonathan Howard -- when you can do what -- see all 3 positions?
Howard Stop and say something different.
Jonathan Really? Thats all you want to be able to do more and more and more and more
Howard And, this is one technique that strikes me as a powerful way to do it.
Jonathan So what other goals will manifest themselves after you've reached this goal already?
Howard That's my goal. When I get there, the other things I learn on the way will lead to new goals.
misjief So what? Other goals will manifest themselves after. You've reached this goal already! That is better, hell yes. Would you have caught it otherwise?
Howard misjief: I leave that to whatever happens. Or, I try to keep an open mind about it.
misjief I missed the thought behind the words - help me with it. Howard? I don't understand? misjief: I leave that to whatever happens. Or, I try to keep an open mind about it.
Howard I set some specific goals, otherwise I try to leave myself open to whatever surprises life brings. Is that clearer?

We Sure Are Rambling Here...
Jonathan this is the biggest group we've had online in a while -- and though we meandered a LOT in a fun way at first... we ended up with a few really cool techniques to utilize from each other!
galamud thank you =)
Jonathan So I want to STOP... and START to think about specific things people want to actually improve in their day-to-day activities. So.
wendi stop?
Jonathan Lets take specific circumstances, and ask people here... one by one... if there's something SIMPLE and quick that they'd like to get past... and play together here in the #NLP channel to arrive at ideas for that person's issue...!
tkwr Greetings all
RodMunch so far 2 things have really sparked my interest...anchoring orgasms to shaving and getting out of bed w/o turning off the alarm clock and going back to sleep... I'd rather hear about waking up in the morning, though.
Jonathan Hiya tkwr -- we're 1 hr into the chat
wendi Well, rod, you'll have to start shaving your legs
Jonathan So there are people here that have trouble waking up effectively in the mornings?
Dan_26 that anchor has already been set, wendi will never view shaving her legs the same way ever again :)
misjief i think he' rather borrow yours for the job *LOL*
RodMunch I know dan26 was talking about it earlier (waking up)
galamud yeah, I always wake up late.
Dan_26 i would just like to explore other people's strategies - if this is a good time, if not, later
Jonathan WHO here... wakes up ON TIME, all the time? I'm going right to the meat of the matter!
Virgin I used to, for many years, but not any more.
Dan_26 i do for the most part, but what i do at that moment isn't always the most useful :)
Jonathan Anyone? Anyone? BUELLER? Almost all of us wake up late, or at different times...? ;)
RodMunch looks like we have a good topic to talk about
misjief i think the trick is to be more excited about your day then sleep, like snowboarding - I am never late
galamud I'm somewhat wide awake when my alarm goes off the first time, but I go back to sleep anyway, just because I can. After that, I'm exhausted.
Jonathan That's one trick.
Dan_26 the addiction of the altered state that presents itself at the waking moment, i think :)
Jonathan So its Dan and misjief, then?
kallee Is the issue waking up or getting up?
Jonathan hehheh nice distinction, kallee...
RodMunch I am ALWAYS more excited about the day than I am about sleep; I think sleep is a waste of time, yet I can't get up no matter how many alarm clocks I set.
Dan_26 oooh, like that kallee
Jonathan Alright, Dan & misjief...
misjief the other that I really think is fun is to suggest that you will immediately proceed to the shower when the alarm goes off; you wake up to find your ass in the shower and lost as to how you got there
Jonathan is it true that you get up regularly, on time, generally consistently...
Dan_26 sure
Jonathan and that includes waking up followed by getting up, right?
galamud I can only really get up if I feel an extremely pressing need to. Such as DEFINITE impending lateness, or a one-time-only event.
kallee I lay in bed and do the breathing in for 4 hold for 16 out for 8 that takes about 4 min then I get up
Dan_26 varies on daily duties. . .
Jonathan Just talking to Dan for the moment, folks -- plz hang on everyone else --
Dan_26 the thoughts of what i need to accomplish during the day usually compell me to get up
misjief rods trick works great - till you get tired and swich priorities back to sleep because you need it
Jonathan Attempting to cleanly model Dan's waking strategies. Hold it Dan -- go back to the beginning... to that state you were in EARLY this morning... ;) And see if you can close your eyes and remember what it was like to wake up... (at the angle you were at, etc...) if there was music or talking or noise, or light, etc
Dan_26 ok, i'm there
kallee see yourself having handled (successfully) all of the daily duties. notice the resources that allowed your success and install them before you get up.
Jonathan WHAT OCCURRED, in terms of sensory specific information, and in what order? (I like it Kallee!)
Dan_26 then again, i awake several times, which one would you like me to select, the final one where i actually get up?
Jonathan Dan -- give us the sequence as you recall it. If the cycle occurs for like, 3 hours, then, you may not be the ideal model ;) but if you wake up a few times EARLY, and still get up "on time" then that could be useful.
Dan_26 i usually wake after every dream cycle. . .
Jonathan REALLY? interesting. That does happen with some people. every 90 minutes or so.
Dan_26 yea, use to be heavily into dream study/lucid dreaming.
Jonathan Thats why I try to get sleep in increments of 90 minutes. 3 hrs, 4.5 hrs, 6 hrs, 7.5 hrs (if I'm feeling REALLY luxuriant) cool. OK, so you wake up roughly every 90 minutes or so... how much sleep do you actually get? (usually)>
Dan_26 hmmmm. . . weekdays, usually 7 hours on average
Jonathan ok, and do you get up at the same time every day? go to sleep at the same time every day?
Dan_26 roughly. . . once it's time to get up, i usually snooze the clock and fade in and out of hypnagogic imagery until the absolute last minute i can remain there. Need a stronger motivation to remove myself from that state and into getting up
Jonathan Well, this just seems like the usual fighting it until the last minute... ;)
Dan_26 ok
Jonathan Not the ideal model for people wanting to learn WANTON motivation strategies for FACING the world in the early AM... HUNGRY for the wonder that awaits... ;) (my opinion, Dan, could be you're the ideal model for it)
galamud cy'all, time for me to get some sleep =)
Jonathan It may be that you've got your fighting down to a set pattern... with limited damage and risk control -- i.e., you KNOW the last minute beyond which it would do you harm to sleep longer. i.e., you'd be late for work, or something similar. That's avoidance. Well, I suggest we choose another topic -- another issue someone else would like to explore in everyday life... because we don't have any resident morning glories to model... ;) OR...
Dan_26 i'll let my unconsious handle that one

Exploring someone's Motivational Strategy
tkwr Jon... I've got one for you... Which is I have a close and dear friend....who has VERY unrealistic expectations about success and what is required to be good at something....such that unless they can do it PERFECT, they usually don't even try..... So..the issue is...how do we get this person OFF of their self-pity and into motivation land?
Jonathan Alright, IO might want to know what is their motivation strategy for something they already know they can do beautifully? I think I LIKE this topic/issue!
tkwr Usually what they already know they can do has to do with things that are INHERENTLY fun for them..in other words, the activity ITSELF is very enjoyable..... And I think a HUGE part of it is the unrealistic expectation that things should be EASY for them.....
kallee move the location of the modal operator
Jonathan side-line comment for new folks to NLP -- NORMALLY I would not want to help someone with someone ELSE's motivation strategy -- because the levels of indirection lead to some weird tangents and inaccurate assessments -- in this case I trust tkwr's assessments pretty solidly.
misjief is that self-pity??
tkwr Yes..self-pity I would call it..... Thank you..trust me..I know this person INTIMATELY well ;) By the way..it is most defintely NOT me!
Jonathan ok, let me review here (I know, tkwr!). Let me ask a question about the activity. Is it something that involves a lot of people? Something that the person thinks is not inherently EASY and EASY to do perfectly, when done with GROUPS?
tkwr And by the way..my GUT tells me that their is some hypnotic phenomena going on...that is SOME incident where they were let down or disappointed by someone early in life and decided, "FUCK IT..I'm never gonna try ever again...what's the use?" In other words...hang on...hang on a sec... Forgive me, Jon...
Jonathan sure
tkwr Your patience and pardon for a moment my friend...
Jonathan ;) tkwr is using softeners ;) LOTS of em
tkwr I sense almost a different personality or ego/state centered around the emotions of disappointment and APATHY..like..WHY BOTHER...NOTHING I EVER DO WILL BE GOOD ENOUGH..." When you get this person in their more adult, upbeat state, they are QUITE capable....
Jonathan ok. Is it related to groups or not?
tkwr But ANY sign from the outside that things aren't going their way tends to bang them back(ha ha ha) into that earlier, childish, "what's the use" state... So at BEST..their motivation is a temporary thing they work themselves into. I don't think it is group related.... So I guess the issue is: How do we diminish that childish state and build in and energize something better...
Jonathan ok. So it sounds like you've tried a NUMBER of things already to redirect their motivation, without success YET. True?
Jonathan ok I got it ;)
kallee sounds like they should look at the value the attach to the activity
tkwr I just know..there is something TRANCEY going on with them..
Jonathan You explain what you *think* is going on, and what history might be at cause... and I guess I would be curious if they told you this, or if this is your insight.
Jonathan Simple question (more for me than for you) Have you set up a propulsion system with BOTH the TOWARDS and the AWAYFROM, and then amplified both?
tkwr It's a DEEP gut level instinct...plus based on some conclusions from what I know of their family history...
Jonathan Maybe put them both into motion? ok thanks for the additional info.
tkwr Away from what? That's my point.....
Jonathan ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh DING! Are THEY digusted with their own inaction?
tkwr It's a dissociated ego state that this person has little or NO awareness of when they are upbeat and happy...
Jonathan Is that something you can build in? disgusted even?
tkwr Yes..they ARE disgusted by it..I think it makes them depressed and I don't know if I want to move them further that way..I think they already hav ea fear on some level it's something they are STUCK with... But I see your point....
Jonathan What if you can attach ACTION to disgust...
misjief it seems to me like they are trying to please someone outside themselves- someone that wouldn't or couldn't be pleased - since it has become a habit they are comfy with
Jonathan maybe metaphorically -- like with a story of how disgust doesn't lead to inaction -- it leads to puking... and after the purge.. people usually feel better and start doing MORE
tkwr You mean they feel disgusted..and TAKE action to move out of that state? I don't know if that would make for a very happy person... more productive, but..well...
misjief so now that inaction has become a saftey net to keep them from the disappointment
tkwr Ahh..so you are saying...disgust----->>>>>purge------>>>action...
Jonathan So if that doesn't work, you find an away-from... and amplify it.
tkwr Ok... Hmm.
Jonathan Right.
tkwr This person used to be bulimic... I don't know if I want to go in the PURGE direction, but I get your drift... Problem is..they tend to get REALLY stuck in the negative Kinesthetic-Internal....So what would the "purge" be????
Jonathan Good -- so we could use a different metaphor... (Editor's note: I'm glad tkwr saw the intent behind the specifics!) anchor in a chain of states using something other than that specific....
tkwr Hitting something? throwing things????
Jonathan Hmmmm. It doesn't necessarily need to be a purge... lets see... GLUE...
tkwr Or maybe remove the old incident that triggered the whole problem in the first place....
Jonathan ACETONE/MINERAL SPIRITS -- dissolving the stuck 'crap' (thinking out loud) ... clean slate... new nails... I don't know... still thinking!
misjief tkwr- do they get hung up doing it wrong?
tkwr I thought of maybe some sentence completion: "Nothing I do will ever be good enough for X"
misjief is that their exact words
Howard Primal scream. Oh wrong group...
tkwr "If I try, I'll only Y", "If I get it wrong, I'll Z" (Yes,....they do Mis...)
misjief kewl-
Jonathan That could work -- to get their VALUES
kallee amplify the unwanted state (future pace etc. ) Then a swish into the resourceful state.
misjief do this
Dan_26 bedtime here, i'll catch the log, this is great! night guys
misjief make doing something wrong the goal
misjief either they succeed or they dont
tkwr And also look at the secondary gain.."What would I have to do that I don't do know because I'm all hung up with this?"
Jonathan Those sentence completions would get their values and their RULES/FILTERS/METAPROGS that support them. YES.
misjief where does that leave them
tkwr What will happen to my life if I DON'T do those tings?? what will it feel like?
Jonathan Youd find out if they were values -- or just... MEANS to an end. You're kind of using Tony Robbins'ish techniques there. But they work, of course.
misjief infact make it fun! tkwr either way approve of them - maybe not the action but them
tkwr Hmmthanks for the suggestion...I gotta go watch SEINFELD! SEEYA!
Jonathan Enjoy!
misjief I have to go, hope that works
tkwr P.S...Sargy is doing fine now, after his fight with whatever nailed him! Thanks for all the good wishes!
Jonathan Wish we had a few more minutes on that one -- perhaps another time.
tkwr Ok! Bye! MEERRROWWWW!
Jonathan May as well close the chat out! Thanks EVERYONE for coming -- tkwr for stopping in... Thank YOU all for coming and participating!
FT_Hobbes thanks Jon!


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