NLP & Animal Training - NLP Training Chat

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IRC Chat Log, January 24, 1999

Warming Up!
Jonathan	Hi, folks! Thanks for joining in tonight for another chat. Who here has read the book "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor? (y/n)
Eloquence	Yes
Tranzpupy, Venus	1/2
_Stile_, Paolo, IntriKate, Simon_UK, NLPSGI, Uranus, Tangram, NLP_D00D, FullStop, doRonRon, KingAmra	No
Jonathan	This chat will not be a "book report!" I do want to touch on a number of topics & issues she raised though! Because I think its a reasonably widely-held understanding that what she's written is perhaps the closest thing to using NLP with Animals in training --- and she writes about animal training in a way that is aimed also at helping us to learn how to train people better! So let's start there. And if you want to know more than people discuss here -- I encourage people to support her work and buy/read her book.
Jonathan	OK -- Karen's sections in the book -- as a quickie outline: REINFORCEMENT: Better Than Rewards SHAPING: Developing Super Performance STIMULUS CONTROL: Cooperation Without Coercion UN TRAINING: Using Reinforcement
NLPSGI	Hey, this is Husband Stuff!
Jonathan	Big Time! And Wife Stuff, too!
Tranzpupy	Or boyfriend stuff... Or BOSS stuff!
NLP_D00D	Or TEACHER stuff!
Jonathan	Oh boy, I know why you all came here! You think I'm going to start talking about SEX! LOL!
Finter	...coughing...
doRonRon	Sex as reinforcement? Hmmm...
Eloquence	Sex is too sloooww...
NLPSGI	NO, NO, go on, we are sorry... Let's get back to animal training.
NLP_D00D	Animal Training? Like "doggie hypnosis"?
What can we learn from Doggie Hypnosis?
Jonathan	Yeah, Doggie Hypnosis! OK. There seem to be a whole lot of folks into NLP who've done some dog training. Joe Riggio, who has two chats on this web site, trained dogs for years...
NLPSGI	Including Richard Bandler!
Eloquence	There are only a few lines that are really important in her [Karen's] book.
Jonathan	Quentin! What did you learn of value from Karen?
Eloquence	Sex and reinforcement. Reinforcement requires INSTANT response. Anything positive must be reinforced instantly. How prepared are you, those who wish to train their husbands.
NLPSGI	Eloquently said.
Jonathan	And why does "Reinforcement only with Positive means" work better than both positive & negative Reinforcement?
Eloquence	Saves one decision. Therefore it can be unconsciously acted on.
NLPSGI	According to her, should negative also be immediately responded to?
Eloquence	Not as I recall. Leap in with a small reward at every positive. Not sex, a hint of sex.
NLPSGI	Hmmmm, so ignore negative and reinforce positive.
Eloquence	Yep. Less justification gets built into the relationship.
Jonathan	She pretty much ignores negative reinforcement; she's more interested in Timing of reinforcement, size of reinforcement, and schedules of reinforcement.
Tranzpupy	Just ignoring the negative works pretty well with human people...
Finter	So if someone is upset, ignoring them is better than comforting them?
Eloquence	No.
Venus	That would be awful, Finter.
Eloquence	Pick anything about what they are doing that is positive.
Simon_UK	But what if they are convinced that their "good" action is not good? Are you then reinforcing the negative?
Venus	Simon, can you give an example?
Simon_UK	Let's say that someone has low self-esteem. They perform a task well and you compliment. They however feel that the task was not worthy of your compliment. Thus we have a paradox.
NLPSGI	Ah, that is when you go with the facts. Don't start with their behavior; show them the Positive results, the real things they can not argue with -- the bottom line stuff -- then pace back to them.
Eloquence	Compliments are too slow. SMILE.
NLPSGI	So true, and easily argued by anyone, self-esteem or not. Chunk size is important when complimenting.
Jonathan	LOL Eloquence! Smile INSIDE & OUT.
Venus	Don't you think a compliment needs to be sincere? And, can you give an example, Kathleen?
NLPSGI	Yes. For example, if someone does a good job, and you tell them but they argue [the compliment], then show them the results: what did it accomplish? Increased sales? Or pile gone, things filed... whatever is physically different that you can demonstrate.
Venus	Oh, ok -- that's a good idea
Jonathan	Cool. Let them make the choice afterwards.
NLPSGI	Then pace back to them.
Venus	What does that mean in this example, Kathleen?
NLPSGI	External reference, then internal reference! So how does it feel to see that pile gone?
Venus	Oh, good!!!
Eloquence	Nice.
Simon_UK	And this may be accomplished in the informal environment of the workplace?
NLPSGI	Absolutely, Simon.
Jonathan	If that's after they've done the desired behavior, then -- that may be getting into what Pryor calls "shaping."
Venus	Shaping -- is that getting them to do more of the same?
Jonathan	Unless it's something they've been doing regularly but inconsistently. Let me be clearer! Reinforcing is about adjusting ongoing behaviors. Shaping is about creating new ones. Let's talk about it from an animal-training point of view and find out what it tells us!
Shaping Desired Behavior
Jonathan	I can distill Ms. Pryor's comments on Shaping to be based on Targeting, Mimicry, & Modeling. Targeting is about building a behavior with piecemeal elements... that string together bit by bit.
Venus	Like chaining states?
Jonathan	Yes, yes, yes! Venus gets the 1st Chocolate Bunny for the night!!! Great leap!
Venus	YAY! I finally got 1!!! :-)
NLPSGI	Wooo hooo!
Jonathan	Mimicry is something some animals do easily & well, so if you demonstrate, they follow.
Simon_UK	But does the mimicry show signs of "pacing"?
Jonathan	Yes, Simon, or more like Leading, so that they themselves pace you into learning what it is you want them to learn!
Venus	Does that ever really happen Jonathan?
Jonathan	Never, Venus, I'm sure its just a hopeful fantasy. Wink!
Venus	LOL!
Jonathan	And Modeling (according to Ms. Pryor's material, not a reference to 'NLP modeling') is pushing the subject through something. Like, handing your husband the garbage can and pushing him down the driveway.
Eloquence	Targeting would be smiling every time he went NEAR the garbage can.
Jonathan	Laura definitely didn't do that to me last night. No way, Jose. She didn't say "get off the computer and take the garbage out." She definitely didn't do that.
Venus	Hahaha! That's good to know!
Jonathan	Quentin -- you read the book too -- what did you learn from her discussion of shaping?
Eloquence	Smile when approaching man at computer.
Venus	So is this stuff best when its nonverbal?
Jonathan	Yes -- she mentioned 10 high-level rules for shaping -- (and categorized the 'short cuts' to shaping as the above 3)
Eloquence	Very specific steps. Reinforce any behavior that comes close to what you want. To teach a chicken to dance, give a small reward if it stands on one leg. Keep is small and within the half second rule. We don't want thinking here.
Jonathan	Yes indeed! I had some friends over a while back and Laura (who was our dog's primary trainer though I was involved) used many of Pryor's techniques to demonstrate something. She shaped a totally new behavior in under 5 minutes in front of the group. Quick & fun!
Simon_UK	Thus establishing a chain of "foody" anchors?
Jonathan	Yes, perhaps Simon -- One of the rules of thumb was, minimize the size of the reward -- and slowly make the reinforcement less easy to acquire.
Eloquence	Right on Simon, Absolutely. No sex in supermarkets.
Venus	LOL!
FullStop	So just one doggie treat instead of 10?
Jonathan	Here's an example with food -- tiny sliced hotdog's! Laura had a spot (a penny or bottle top) on the ground. You don't need to use food -- you can use a "clicker" too -- which is like auditory reinforcement. So she puts the spot on the ground -- and Zoe got the hotdog when she touched her nose to the spot. The 2nd time, she hit the spot faster. The 3rd time it was instant, but Laura was already on to building the next step. She put the spot elsewhere. Zoe went for it elsewhere and didn't get anything, but rapidly went back to the 1st place and then looked. Didn't get anything, then went to the new place and did. By the 3rd round, she was touching both spots. And she built a totally new sequence of behavioral choices that led to the reward.
Eloquence	Dancing dog routine
Simon_UK	Seems similar to back-propagation neural network programming to me. [Editor's note: I didn't respond to this at the time because it didn't suit the main thrust of the chat, but I think Simon's comparison was brilliant so I left it in!]
Jonathan	Laura got really good at shaping dog behaviors. I mean, I was cutting the lawn in half the time, Going from scrubbing dishes right to vacuuming, etc. Whew!
Venus	LOL! Hahaha!
doRonRon	:)
Jonathan	Interesting techniques.
NLPSGI	I'm taking notes! When John comes back from Europe, you are in trouble when he reads the chat log!
Jonathan	:) Tell me about it! Actually, don't tell me about it. Actually, let's talk about something completely different.
Venus	It'll be too late by then, Kathleen!
Eloquence	What I liked about her technique was the way in which it was the reverse of the usual paradigms for learning.
Jonathan	Yes! Quentin's right on the money!
Eloquence	Thanks. She moved from certainty to uncertainty. The trainee moves from the certainty of getting a small reward...
NLPSGI	Hmmm install and test.
Venus	Like memorizing your speech from the back to the front?
Jonathan	Venus, not in this case, at least I don't think so.
Venus	Oh
Jonathan	Here's why and Quentin can offer his ideas if he thinks I missed it. In the last chapter she talks of UN TRAINING behaviors. I think her entire book at a process level is about UN TRAINING OLD ideas about how best to train, to learn, and to condition, while she talks in entertaining (not ridiculous) and interesting ways about how much more elegantly and quickly people can learn.
Eloquence	When every positive response is instantly rewarded there is a certainty in that for the trainee. It is ONLY when it is time to move on to a new behavior that the rewards become less certain.
Jonathan	Quiz: Is she talking of learning how to train animals from what we've learned about human learning? Or is she talking of learning how to train people from what we've learned about animal learning?
Eloquence	She was talking about training people to train... whatever.
Jonathan	Or ANY permutation of the above?
NLPSGI	Ooooh, fancy word, Scooby Snack for Jonathan!
Jonathan	Permutation? chomp chomp chomp Thanks! Let's coalesce all this stuff together :)
NLPSGI	Ohhh, another one!
Venus	LOL!
Jonathan	Scooby Snack?
NLPSGI	Oh ok.
Jonathan	chomp chomp chomp
NLPSGI	But you are making a habit of this
Jonathan	YEAH, YEAH, habit! chomp chomp chomp Hey now... but he habit coming to him.
Eloquence	LOL
NLPSGI	I had a dog that would do that. He would go up to you and do every trick he knew just to get a treat. All of them at once!
Venus	So you trained a routine!
Eloquence	And then darn it you wanted to change it.
NLPSGI	How would this author describe this process? What did he learn to do?
Jonathan	I think Karen had something to say about that, actually. She suggested that behavior might come from a rapid withdrawal of reward from each behavior, rather than a slow withdrawal of the reinforcement.
NLPSGI	Huh.
Jonathan	That might lead to a rapid cycling-through of whatever the dog thought you wanted to see, because they expected every iteration of SOME behavior to get the response!
NLPSGI	Yes, well isn't that the process you described? Instant response to positive, consistently.
Jonathan	Yes, except -- over time -- the # of iterations of the same behavior that get the reward -- drops. Eventually, the animal gets the response to a much smaller # of times they do the behavior.
Eloquence	And it's less regular.
Jonathan	Yes, Quentin. No point in rewarding every third performance. They know when to perform. Trainers need random number generators.
NLPSGI	Tell that to my dog.
Jonathan	Tell it to your dog! LOL! Kathleen -- Both you & John already do this amazingly well with people, though!
NLPSGI	Well this was a long time ago Before John (BJ). Now I have a raptor. Well, actually, he's a Conure, but he thinks he is a raptor. We have one of those giant steel confinement units, with the alarms.
IntriKate	I have a Conure (small parrot), too!
Finter	Like a Canary
Paolo	lol
NLPSGI	Hey, Finter. You want to meet my canary? You wouldn't last 5 seconds! LOL!
Venus	LOL!
AccessNLP	Any tips for how to train a couple of Chihuahuas to STOP saying, "Yo quiero NLP!"
Jonathan	LOLOLOLO! Dave!!! ROTFL! For that, we'd be looking in the UN TRAINING section...
AccessNLP	Un training? What's the difference?
Jonathan	Karen Pryor might very well have said -- "If you take your Dog to Taco Bell, you'd better make a run for the border!"
Animal Training & Anchoring
Jonathan	Here in Florida, we have 1,500,000 tiny lizards we keep out in the yard.
AccessNLP	Everyone does this?
Jonathan	We train them to crawl over everything & hang out on the sliding glass doors.
Venus	Do their tails come off when you catch them?
Jonathan	Why catch them when I already feed them the local mosquitos?
NLPSGI	I have a bat in my back yard for that.
Jonathan	Baseball Bat?
NLPSGI	Richard bought us a bat-house for the yard and it has been great fun. It took a while for them to come. Two years. Gotta get the human smell off the wood.
AccessNLP	Cool!
Jonathan	That's wild! I suppose that would be a problem. Now another area of the book which might interest you NLPers -- is that Karen had quite a bit to say about ANCHORING. But... you wouldn't want to know more about that, I guess...
Venus	Yes we would!!! Tell us, tell us, tell us! Please?
Eloquence	No, no, tell us more!
Paolo	Responses ad infinitum...
Jonathan	Quentin -- do you hear any distant sharp piercing dog whistles? Karen gave a brief example of conditioned responses to stimuli -- with sharp whistles for herding dogs -- in NZ -- where "the countryside is wide and the dog may be far off."
Eloquence	Too true. It may even have been sent away if it is a hunterway.
Finter	'get by Shep, get by'
Eloquence	Close Finter. Close. "Get by Shep, get by" is close.
Finter	The words "teaching your grandmother to suck eggs" come to mind when you mention sheep dog training.
Jonathan	OK, You'll LOVE this -- Karen Pryor defines 4 rules for perfect stimulus control (1) Desired behavior is immediate in response to stimuli (2) Behavior is reserved for whenever ONLY the stimuli occurs. (3) Behavior never occurs in response to other stimuli (4) No other behavior occurs when that stimuli is presented chuckle Now..... what does THAT set of conditions sound like to you?
Simon_UK	I'm wondering, immediate or adequate?
AccessNLP	Ummmmm.... values alignment?
Venus	Anchoring!!!
Paolo	Anchor?
Jonathan	Nice answers! What about congruence?
Paolo	Hmmm yeah!
Jonathan	Is the dog thinking "hm, should I sit? Or pee on his carpet?"
Venus	OK, LOL!
Simon_UK	Terribly unique anchoring - must be for very special cases. Or rather, its success will be better for more unique cases.
Paolo	No possibility for dilution there.
Jonathan	Perhaps. If anchoring is taught in a way that suggests it is best done with common signals, are they using unique enough anchors? I always keep in mind a list of anchoring conditions you can find in a number of the books. One of the interesting conditions is -- UNIQUENESS.
Eloquence	Good girl, Good girl
Jonathan	The more unique, the better, right? (that's not the only condition).
Simon_UK	Walking past a lamp-post is a common signal, does that elicit marking in dogs?
Jonathan	ROTFL -- nope -- but what it often does do is make it more likely for them to sniff the already-marked lamp-post.
Paolo	The lamp-post is only an anchor if another dog has marked it! Ha ha ha!
Jonathan	Yes Paolo! So it is an anchor, initially probably visual. But do we really know? Perhaps they first noticed it by olfactory!
Paolo	Bunny? Just kidding...
Jonathan	YES Paolo gets the 2nd Chocolate Bunny, in a bikini!
Paolo	Woohoo!
Venus	Yay, Paolo!
AccessNLP	I have a friend who taught his dog all the verbal commands in German
Jonathan	:) Was it an English Sheepdog? Or a Shih-tzu?
Simon_UK	(1) can we know, (2) do we need to know -- by what means the dog first responded to the lamppost anchor thing? Are we really interested in how the dog performs the task enough in order to decide what mental processes are going on. And indeed if they are usefully analogous to human responses.
Jonathan	Content wise, its curious, Process-wise, we all have our responses to stimuli...
Paolo	Do dogs have preferred rep systems?
Venus	Scent?
Eloquence	Definitely. It is how they define themselves and others.
Jonathan	If you put 1,000,000 drops of water in a vat, and 1 drop of urine along with it, supposedly dogs can smell that. Auditory & Olfactory are their major senses!
Eloquence	1,000,000 drop of water = bathtub full
Paolo	Makes sense
Finter	Jonathan - where do get those anecdotes from about vats of water an urine :)
Jonathan	Oh, Finter, hang out long enough with a bunch of weirdo dog trainers and you hear all kinds of odd stories!
Finter	Hehe!
Venus	Boy, I'm glad I can't smell it!
NLPSGI	Gustatory too! I think that one works the best.
Jonathan	Mmmmmmmmmm, Chocolate Bunnies.........
Finter	Chocolate Bunnies - that's a rude English colloquialism
Jonathan	Aren't they all, Finter?
Finter	Yes, most of them, anyway! :)
Paolo	Whatever representational system they use in their reference structure.
Jonathan	As Quentin said (bears repeating) at least where dogs are concerned -- it might be useful to have a larger frame of understanding for THEIR sensory representational awareness. Best way to do that is to block out the other senses temporarily, like, wear eye-masks, and use earplugs, and have various scents brought near your nose.
NLPSGI	I guess aromatherapy would be good for the doggies: Essence of Bacon, Essence of Liver. Essence of cat, for stimulation.
Venus	LOL! Kathleen!
NLPSGI	Hmmmmm is there anyone using olfactory for training?
Jonathan	Great question! Is anyone using Olfactory!!!? I know one trainer ended up using it poorly one time. Man, did he eat the wrong things the night before.
NLPSGI	Hehehe
Pacing & Leading Dogs, Cats, & Babies!
Simon_UK	So do dogs use mirroring to gain enhanced sensory perception?
Jonathan	Sometimes they do, Simon, Pryor calls that Mimicry.
Finter	Yes.
Eloquence	Dogs can pace and lead brilliantly.
Paolo	Heel, Fido!
Finter	Jonathan paces and leads his dog.
Jonathan	Yes -- I do use pacing & leading with my dog.
Venus	Really?
Eloquence	How pant pant?
Simon_UK	I have read on the newsgroup that such abilities lead to enhanced perception.
Jonathan	If its late at night, and she's energetic, I can pace & lead her from excited to asleep in under 10 minutes. Sometimes much faster, but 10 is a good outside number.
AccessNLP	Yep
Finter	So you mirror her breathing?
Eloquence	Holly used to pace my breathing when I was asleep till I followed her and then she would stop breathing.
Jonathan	Yes, along with blinks and posture. The baby is much faster, by the way. :)
Finter	You can pace and lead babies? Wow. My sister is due with her baby tomorrow, I will experiment.
Venus	Really, you can put the baby to sleep in under 10 min?
Jonathan	Sure.
Venus	That is so cool, Jonathan!
Jonathan	"Most of the time" its about 3-5 minutes. About 30% of the time, she's not even CLOSE to the mood for that.
thefool	I can put a baby to sleep in less than a minute... also a grownup.
Venus	No way.
thefool	It's called the "live long and prosper" touch.
NLPSGI	I know some dogs don't like it if YOU mimic them.
Jonathan	Yes! They often find it to be challenging! So, cross mirror. But as for mirroring dogs -- most of them pant so damn' fast -- you'd pass out, SO... breathe at exactly half-speed!
Finter	Do it in rhythm
Jonathan	Yes, get the same rhythm.
NLPSGI	Put my son to sleep every night! That way it teaches them to fall asleep naturally. It actually trains them how to fall asleep.
Venus	That's really nice, Kathleen!
Finter	I will try it when she has the baby, hopefully tomorrow
Jonathan	Too cool! Now, I'm pretty good about pacing & leading with Dogs, but I had NO clue how to do it with Cats. Rex Sikes once described how he does it: For pacing Cats, pace their breathing, then, stop, breathe reallllllly deeply, then pick up the pattern again.
Eloquence	Pace, speed up, STOP. That wakes them up.
Venus	When I sigh, Mercedes will sigh, too. And when I yawn, so will she.
Finter	Cats are a league unto their own.
NLPSGI	Babies, if you pace them, will fall asleep and learn how to fall asleep naturally. We can go into detail on how if we want to distract the animal thing for a min
Jonathan	We can! Because this was about what can we learn FROM this subject, and how it can be applied!
NLPSGI	I have another slightly different way; it still works as well. Doc told me that I should put my son in his crib and let him cry till he fell asleep.
Jonathan	Yup -- that's the T. Berry Brazelton Pattern-Interrupt for "dependent parents!"
doRonRon	That worked well with mine.
NLPSGI	Yet, he was premature and they did not want him to cry that much, so, I said let's try NLP. So I would put him on his tummy, and as he cried I patted his back in the rhythm of his crying, very fast but lightly at first. Then I would simply slow down a little at a time. Very simple, takes a few minutes, but its worth it. Then I would go so slow, that there would be one pat every 15 or 20 seconds. A pat, then stop.
Venus	Yeah, and it's painless for everybody! That's great!
Jonathan	WOW you slowed down much further than I did -- I'm going to try that!!!
NLPSGI	He would be asleep, worked every time. And the crying each night would lessen, and he would stop faster; I would have to slow down quicker to keep up with him.
Paolo	Very nice, Kathleen, wow. That's brilliant.
Simon_UK	I've seen mothers do that when they're rocking prams or holding the baby in their arms.
NLPSGI	This also trained him how to slow himself down and stop crying.
Tranzpupy	Wow, now if I could just pat myself!
Tangram	Wow.
NLPSGI	Trained him how to fall asleep to slow down his internal pace for deeper sleep, even if he was not crying. I put him to sleep this way. Great bonding and pacing.
Finter	Can I use that method to get out of bed in the morning, in reverse? LOL!
NLPSGI	Sure!
Venus	Sweet :-)
NLPSGI	I still rock back and forth on line; I'm trained.
Jonathan	I'm impressed. I'll try it out tonight!
Simon_UK	Hmm, interesting, as babies' visual development is not good, is there something else going on to achieve the pacing?
Finter	How does the person's unconscious mind pick up on your breathing (pacing & leading)? Is it purely auditory?
Simon_UK	It's almost as if there are two classes of senses, a coarse (everyday) sense system: and a subtle (NLP) sense system.
Finter	It happened to me so many times while I try it, I will sing a song, and the other person starts singing outload!
Jonathan	Finter -- about Breathing -- you play guitar, right?
Finter	Yes.
Jonathan	OK, Finter. When you tune a guitar, you play a note or harmonic on one string, and then another note or harmonic on another, right? What happens if they're not perfect? When you have both notes resonating together? Or -- at the same time, but not the same note? What happens?
Finter	Yeah they phase. I can hear phasing so acutely! I hear it, then I feel it, and I get different feelings for different phasing's.
Simon_UK	Perfect pitch is a matter of playing a lot. You then imagine the note. More often than not it is at perfect pitch. You have to feel confident though, in my experience as a cornet player. You just get to "know" that the note is right. It becomes very difficult when people are playing out of tune. Painful even!
Finter	Yeah
Jonathan	Yes. NOW. Breathing is exactly the same way. Try it out.
Finter	Wow, that's a great metaphor.
Simon_UK	Pacing is breathing in tune?
Jonathan	Yes, Simon...
Simon_UK	I'll try that out tomorrow at the department meeting.
Jonathan	Cool!
Finter	But how does the other person pick up on this?
Finter	In auditory fashion?
Simon_UK	Through their "subtle sensory system."
Finter	Which is a 6th sense? Is it a 6th sense Jonathan?
Jonathan	It's primarily kinesthetic for me. Some people train it "psychically" and the results their students achieved were spotty at best.
Wrapping Up!
Jonathan	OK folks -- I'm wrapping it up -- let me take this moment to thank you for coming & for joining in!
Paolo	Thanks again for a cool topic and sharing with us a few more distinctions. Always appreciated.
Jonathan	Thank you all for coming. Its great to see everyone here and having fun and maybe even learning something together. I enjoyed your involvement!
doRonRon	Thanks, Jonathan, for having this session!
DLuzi, Tranzpupy	Thanks, Jonathan!
Jonathan	Thank you all! Thanks Dom, Kay, Kate & everyone!
IntriKate	G'nite!
Venus	Good night everybody, & thank you, Jonathan!
IRC CHAT OVER!

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