Chat Log: Featuring Mark Stanarevic

IRC Chat Pages [ Back to Chat Index Page ]

Featuring Mark Stanarevic
IRC Chat Log, March 14, 1999

Warming Up!
Mezmer Hello, everyone! How well are we all doing!?
Jonathan Hi Mark! Welcome & thanks for doing a chat! Mark became a provisional trainer in 1997 -- at Richard Bandler & John La Valle's Charisma Enhancement training! He's here to chat with us about advanced behavioral pattern detection!
FullStop Hello Mark.
Mezmer My pleasure!
ChairmanX Welcome Mark
Mezmer Thanks Chairman! OK! With this chat I will be covering a lot of ground, and you might find your mind not being able to grasp all things consciously yet, and that I want you to notice it is a great thing to be able to let all things plant themselves and grow over time accordingly.
ConneXion I'm just asking this in case you don't mention it, what is your definition of a pattern?
What IS a Pattern?
Mezmer A typical definition of a pattern is a sequence that presents itself over time in coordinated rhythm. And you might be asking how do you know to calibrate this rhythm? And why am I using the term rhythm? Personally speaking to many people over the years in the NLP™ community and beyond, I have noticed a lack of many organic metaphors and have tried to incorporate the learnings and understandings from nature and other cultural origins into the trait of NLP™ distinctions. With the case of rhythms, we have many examples of naturally occuring rhythms in our own body and in nature itself. For example, noticing your heart beating in a sequence over time, and your breathing, all occuring within predictable periods depending on the context you have involved yourself in...
Jonathan What if the pattern has no perceptible rhythm, but evolves more as a set of similarities that occur repeatedly and arhythmically? That could be a pattern. Or a lack of patterns within a pattern.
Mezmer Good point! A rhythm can be stochastic as well. For example, random movements, heart palpitations, and yet that is still part of the greater rhythm. But because it does not fall in exact sequence as the majority of rhythm entrainment can, does it not mean that it does not contain its own spontaneous, chaotic rhythm? And what I am proposing is that this is still a pattern. Even though this rhythm may not be as predictable as the regular rhythm, in chaos theory we tend to refer to this as bifurcation points. A spin-off from the original pattern forming a more complex pattern originating from the base pattern.

OK, now, how do we relate patterns to humans? What are the rhythms or sequences of behaving that we respond to? How do we know we are behaving in a predictable sequence? How do we calibrate other people's patterns? How can we utilise these patterns? Now. Let these questions remain unconscious for now; I will covering them.

Patterns can contain redundancy - Patterns which contain two many steps for an outcome where only a couple of steps are required. Now....An interesting question was asked to me several years ago. And that question was "What is I?" And actually Gregory Bateson asked that question to John Grinder and Richard Bandler.

Dweizal A nominalisation?
FullStop The difference that makes the difference?
Jonathan "What Is Eye?" A small orb, designed to aid vision.
Mezmer My 1st response as well was a noun. And when I took a close look, a realized deep down inside that this "I" is a process. How do we do "I"? What series of behaviors do we assume or produce to identify with "I"?
FullStop Ahh.
Mezmer So as you now start to look at yourself and others as patterns of fluid motion and behaviors, how surprised will you be to find predictable sequences occuring when communicating with yourself and others?
Jonathan Not surprised at all.
Mezmer Over the years being involved with NLP™ I have noticed a lot of control patterns occuring. And many people have come into the NLP™ community with the intention of -- putting it bluntly -- controlling people. Now what I have noticed with the intention of my own behaviors, when 1st learning NLP™, was that I wanted to have all the tools and techniques to be able to control and do all the magic that Richard Bandler and all the others assumedly did in the early days! Including - anchoring other people to do things for me. Not that there is anything wrong with that; what I found interesting... very interesting... was that when I asked myself "What is the intention of my outcomes?" I found that I had to do a lot -- a lot -- of personal change work on my own patterns, before even attempting to sort other people out... now this is where we go into deep waters, folks! Now...this is where this becomes even more interesting! Everyone still listening with their other mind?
Jonathan What other miiiiind? Oh, thaaaaat one!
abcdefgh No, not that one... the OTHER one...
Mezmer All Zoned Out, Folks... Good! Now... I was watching a Richard Bandler video 3 years ago titled "Time & Metaprogram Changes." And I believe on that video or the one about "Building Generalisations," Richard was describing how people built generalizations. And in tracking/noticing people's sorting patterns, he warned "do not try these techniques on yourself!" He even wrote that on the blackboard!
FullStop LOL!
Mezmer Since patterns are recursive, they loop back on themselves. The challenge is that while extensively tracking the source of patterns in your own neurology, you can literally put yourself in a spin, so I warn again: "Be very careful!"
Jonathan Does everyone get what Mark means by recursive?
Gunny`, Sunev, SirBound, Dweizal, Urp, bridge, tranzpupy yes
Xanika No.
How Patterns can be Recursive
Jonathan Recursive means (in this context) patterns that loop back on themselves. Computer Science folks'll have no problem with the concept.
FullStop Yes it loops back on itself.
Insider Patterns that include themselves
Mike_P Yeah...like saying TTP stands for The TTP Project! Writing a function that includes itself in its definition.
Gunny` Can you give an example when it loops back on itself?
Jonathan Here's an example of a recursive pattern. I was thinking back to a pattern that used to happen. The problem I'm thinking of was that every time I'd think about a conversation I had that didn't go well, I'd end up feeling bad about it, back then, and then saying something in my head in awful tonality... And then, I told someone about it. And that conversation didn't go well. So I thought back on the conversation that didn't go well, and I felt bad back then about it and had to say critical things in bad tonality to myself about how I felt bad about prior conversations and then said things in bad tonality about it. Sheesh. STOP! No more! OOOOOOOoooooh AAaaaaaaaaahhhh... better tonality, clean the palate! Go into neutral & then into better, & better! So I went recursive in that example, and it took a bit of a pattern interrupt to break out of it. And go meta.
PureNLP Know more!
SirBound That really helped clear it up for me! I have done the same type of thing and that drove the idea home.
Mezmer Nice example, Jonathan! Thanks!
Jonathan Please explain how this process you're describing helps with getting away from recursive patterns, Mark!
Mezmer I believe all patterns are recursive, Jonathan. The other question I would propose is: "How do we operate out of more useful patterns?" For example: With the tonality example you gave before, you interuppted an example of a recursive pattern, and what I am proposing is that if you do not work at the level of intent, at figuring out what the orginal outcome for the pattern was, then it will cycle back and forth. You see, AS a child, we all learn things from observing our environments and becoming adults. There are many learnings and associations that were once useful for us, but as an adult in our new contexts, because the old learnings remained unconscious, they perhaps have hindered us in some way. E.g phobias of water, perhaps of being thrown into the water as a child -- now as an adult, that phobia would not be useful. So in many instances I have tracked the source of my own patterns and linked them to memories of early experiences as a child or teenager or an adult "imprint experience."

And being able to go back in time and to put in more useful learnings for the current context can address the intent, and in many cases, the reason we have many patterns that typically hinder us is because of our biological survival needs, and the need for our unconscious (through what has happened in one-trial or many trial-learnings) to generalize those over time.

Now, hindering was useful at one time to stop us falling in and drowning, but if you want to enjoy a swim now, it would not be useful. So a simple technique involves asking yourself the intention of the pattern, and you would be surprised in many cases for a picture to pop up, or a voice or strange feeling. Carefully pay attention to what is going on in your own senses during this time of questioning. If you find that a memory comes to the front of your mind, about an interesting experience that you once had, and that there is a relationship between that experience and how you are behaving now, wouldn't that be interesting?

Xanika I must say that it sure would be.
Maxin It happens all the time.
Mezmer I don't want to set a precedent about digging up archaeology. And it is useful to separate the learning from the understandings, if it's affecting you in some way unconsciously that you didn't realise before. Again, the first step is to establish a clean state (A Lifeline), before tracking any personal patterns. A Lifeline is basically about anchoring a clean uptime state, associated to your present awareness or context. That's where you "Feel totally grounded." Once you now find a time in your past where you now have felt that experience of being grounded and in the present, Anchor it! A lifeline being a definition of a clean/grounded/present uptime state!
SirBound, Sunev OK.
Insider Establish a lifeline for *what*? I need an outcome.
Mezmer For the outcome of it being a resource for if you ever feel the need to come back to the present during any personal change work, including pattern tracking.
Jonathan OK, so you have a first step of establishing a clean state, a lifeline.
Mezmer Correct Jon. Find a time in your past where you felt totally grounded and clear. Assume we have a lifeline. Now what we would typically do then is resort to a number of techniques.
Gunny` What do you mean by a clean state?
Mezmer A state associated to the context of being grounded and not interfered by any other thoughts. Now, if you're ready, we're going to track the imprint experience of a couple of patterns that people don't consider productive. Now, having found that memory, you could, simply, take some resources from the present -- like a time when you were confident & strong -- and you had total resolve, nothing could stop you! And anchor that feeling with perhaps a squeeze of one of your fists! Now, can I have a volunteer to run through this process?
Paolof Sure! Yes, I'll do it!
FullStop OK, you want to run through a process with me?
Mezmer 1st Step: Remember a time when you were confident and totally resolved!
FullStop, Paolof OK, got one.
Mezmer And amplify those feelings strong. And anchor it... with your fist; you choose which one.
FullStop, Paolof OK.
Mezmer Now, I want you to think of a sequence of behaviors that you typically engage in, that you would consider unproductive to you now.
FullStop, Paolof OK, got one.
Mezmer Now, go inside, and ask yourself "What is the purpose of this pattern?" And notice what images come to your mind.
Paolof Very interesting!
FullStop Ok.
Mezmer Now, did you get any images or voices?
Wendiii For me, it says "it is the only one I know."
FullStop I had both an image, and internal dialogue. As well as a Kinesthetic response.
Paolof Feelings and images.
Mezmer Great! Now... I would like both of you to go back to a time just before that memory took place, the one that just came up, and then, fire off that anchor of confidence and resolve!
FullStop Whoa. It changed position.
Paolof Very nice!
Mezmer Now, notice how even thinking about the pattern that you had, changes magically into a different behaivour! Your unconscious chooses which one!
FullStop Yes it does!
Paolof I see myself doing something more resourceful and I feel more empowered to accomplish it.
Mezmer Now who says change is slow and boring?! It can be exciting and quick!
Jonathan That was very quick!
Mezmer Now, also, notice you don't need to use a timeline as a metaphor.
FullStop It went from feeling discourged and seeing failure to seeing success, and feeling a mild confidence.
Paolof Should we fire off the anchor in real time, as soon as we encounter the cue for the old pattern?
Mezmer Good question. Paolof, once you have fired off the anchor, you have changed the way your brain responds to the imprint. So you might be surprised to notice, or not, that the memory that you had, had a memory behind it, hence the function of recursiveness. So what I would suggest if you by chance slipped into the old pattern, find out the memory behind the other memory, and in some cases, there is a whole chain!
FullStop And part of the key is to go back to just before that pattern you say?
Mezmer That's right! The brain is a neural network, there are a whole chain of associations! What's to stop you from discovering the links that cause a trigger to a pattern? It depends on how much discovery you're willing to put into it; the unconscious is vast in its vast associations. I'm not recommending archealogy digging; Its better to reframe old imprint expereinces, and then LOOK FORWARD to what else you can be doing with your precious time! As RB says "build propulsion systems!"
Paolof So really you are only dealing w/ one situation if you slip back into old pattern or didnt have the right cue?
Mezmer So yes, in many cases, a simple imprint experience can be enough to trigger off a whole pattern. So change your feeling toward that one, and move on. Don't waste your time digging.
Paolof I see, Yes, thank you! Wow! OK next question: How do we assure success in real time. Next time the situation occurs?
Mezmer That's an easy one! Fire off the anchor. You see, The old pattern that you had... depends upon a certain feeling for it to work, like with Jonathan's tonality example... he changes the feeling of the voice, and it changed the pattern! So by firing off the anchor in real life, you will have a different feeling, which changes the rule for that pattern!
Paolof Wow! I get it! Thank You! :)
FullStop Is it important how we question about the patterns?
Mezmer It is very important to pay attention to all the information coming from your unconscious, so if you find yourself not doing something, and you notice by asking a question to your unconscious, you will retrieve all sorts of images or other information. So I believe is it very important to use some mechanism to access your unconscious resources, and questions help! They are not the only way, but they are a good way!
Patterns & Personal Metaphors
Mezmer Now, the next thing I want to cover is how we respond to patterns, how other people respond to patterns, how we initiate them, and how we can change the trigger! Actually, forget about the sequence, I will be covering all this in metaphor, and by one example! Make it Simple. Now there was one exercise that I did way back in NLP™-land, which comes from the old school of acting. In NLP™-land it was called "Masks of Identity". In acting-land it is a technique of Method Acting. And it involves simply imagining you are someone else, and behaving as if you are that other person totally and congruently!
FullStop Second-position modeling?
Mezmer Yes. You see, to notice that a pattern is occurring, sometimes you just have to step back and notice the rut. For example, if you were in a helicopter, and flew above the city, you would notice all the highways with cars moving in an interesting pattern from way above, far more clearly than if you were in one car on the ground! Now, that involves a process of using ones imagination to find out the behaivours that you want. And you might already know someone who does a behavior that you like already, like someone who always gets people to like them. Now, you could pay attention in your mind's eye about how that person behaves, how they walk and talk, how they move their physiology, and then see yourself doing the same thing in your mind's eye. Now, if you had a problem of getting into rapport and you now did the above process, do you not think that will change the way that person responds to you?
Sunev, JonathanA, FullStop, SirBound Yes!
Mezmer Does anyone here have a problem with a certain person at work or home, etc?
ChairmanX Yes I do
Jonathan Sure -- a neighbor :)
SirBound Yeppers
Braqish Nope. Never.
ChairmanX LOL
Mezmer Now...Imagine that you are that person's father or mather and that you care for them dearly, and, next time you talk to them, notice how they respond differently to you while you maintain that state! You notice that by changing one's state mentally, your body changes including you facial muscles which include over 5000 nonverbal-messages. So why do it the hard way! Change your state and go forth! So by congruently taking on that persona you have adopted that state, so your non-verbals will match up as well!
ChairmanX Yep, not to mention your voice
Mezmer That's right ChairmanX! And many times, it's a simple thing like a frown on the face, or an upward tonal inflection that can trigger off a unresourceful pattern in another person!
Xanika A new definition to the saying "it's not what you say, it's how you move it."
Jonathan Only 5000 messages? Bummer!
Mezmer AT least 5000! Heheh! So by changing the triggers that cause the patterns in other people to come out, you don't activate them, so why dig yourself out of a hole if you don't have to make one in the 1st place?! And that's why RB keeps talking about tonality, tonality and tonality!!
Wendiii Aha!
Jonathan Well, that may be ONE of the reasons :)
Mezmer I agree, and with Richard, be sure there are many! OK, I'd like to move onto findings one's personal metaphors, and how they influence their behavioral patterns. What I typically do for myself is I write down a list of my own metaphors and beliefs, and then go through the list, with one question in mind being "What themes are comon with these metaphors?" E.g, Conflict, Win/Lose, War Metaphors, Hopelesness, Passion - it could include any theme. Just find the ones in common across your beliefs and metaphors.
Jonathan "They all seem to involve Beer"
FullStop, Sunev, Gunny, SirBound LOL
Mezmer Heheh! So I'd like to find a volunteer so as to help elicit their personal metaphors.
Sunev Do me! Do me!
Mezmer Hehe... OK! Now, Jonathan, can you give a brief note on how to detect personal metaphors?
Jonathan Certainly, Mark! You can elicit metaphors, or you can simply listen for them. Have you ever been talking to someone, and maybe you were instructing them on how to do something, or just telling a story to a friend, and they said in response "Oh, that's just like when I... bla bla bla bla bla" or "I know just what you mean. Thats like this: ..."
Gunny`, Sunev Yes?
Xanika Or, "that reminds me of the time when" ?
Braqish I know what you mean, Jonathan. Just the other day I was talking to this guy and he...
Sunev LOL! Braqish!
Jonathan Well, that tells me a lot about the person. What does it tell me? Go ahead & guess!
ChairmanX JonathanA: The stupid answer would be that the person is putting themselves in your shoes and trying to apply the story to themselves.
Jonathan Yes Chairman, thank you -- very eloquently spoken.
ChairmanX Thanks.
Xanika It tells you that this person likes to compete and challenge others experiences with their own?
Braqish A lack of empathetic listening skills?
SirBound Rapport
Jonathan Yes, Rapport...
Sunev Whether they match or mismatch?
Jonathan Yes Venus, chunk up & you perhaps may have a more useful answer.
Sunev Whether they chunk up or not?
Jonathan Yes, what are those two responses examples of, Venus?
Sunev One-upmanship?
Sunev Jonathan, I'm stuck...sorry!
Jonathan That's OK, Metaprograms, Venus.
Sunev Oh, yeah, I was thinkin' that.
Gunny` What is a metaprogram?
Jonathan Gunny: There's another chat on the website about that available here!
So! To continue, those kinds of responses tell you a LOT about the person. They tell you a lot about a person's sorting processes.
Sunev So how does that help you?
Jonathan They tell you whether the person is responsive to you or if they're ignoring how you communicate. They tell you what your communication elicits in them! They tell you all kinds of things about how the other person encodes or represents their world!
Sunev Oh, I see! I mean, I hear you! Er, I'm getting the hang of it
Gunny` It tells you what representational system they are using?
ChairmanX It tells you how selfish they are too -- useful!
Mezmer OK. So basically by writing down one's beliefs about a certain context of one's life or identity or metaphors, you can find themes common to many of them, and some of those themes could involve War Metaphors, Conflict, and others. So who was the volunteer?
Sunev Me! Me!
Mezmer OK! Choose a part of your life you have been having trouble with recently.
Sunev Energy! I've been having an energy crisis! :-)
Mezmer I want you to write or type down ten beliefs/metaphors about that topic now.
Sunev On here?
Mezmer If you want to show it publically it might help (for the purposes of the demonstration), as long as its not too personal. Now, remember to write down your own beliefs/metaphors about this, not those of other people.
Sunev 1 It's hard work
2 It takes energy!
3 Others got it
4 I need it fast
5 I need it for work
6 I can't pay my rent without it
7 i don't want to go off half-cocked! (Enough for now!)
Mezmer Now do you notice the theme of scarcity in all the beliefs and metaphors you have presented?
Sunev Yes! That's what I'm telling you. I don't have much energy :-D
Mezmer Now we have a chain that unites all these unresourceful beliefs, so we can track back to the original imprint that formed the scarcity response.
Sunev I'm paying attention now! So how do we do that?
Mezmer By changing that, how surprised will you be to notice these unresourceful beliefs dissapear like smoke into thin air! Simple.
Sunev Very, very happily surprised!
Mezmer First, ask yourself to find a time when you first noticed scarcity in your life, like an experience that caused you to believe in scarcity. Whatever you felt scarce about first! Just ask yourself "When was the first time I ever experienced the notion of scarcity?"
Sunev Got it.
Mezmer Did a long lost memory pop up?
Sunev Yep!
Mezmer Amazing!
Sunev LOL!
Xanika Absolutely Amazing! Wow!
Mezmer And now you can learn that that memory doesn't have to rule your learnings -- in other areas of your life -- apart from the first learning. You see, we can use the first technique about taking positive feelings back to the source (imprint memory) and change our current patterns that are based on the imprint. So we can use metaphors and beliefs to finds themes, and once you find main themes, you can simply track the imprints for the themes instead of every single belief or metaphor! Some NLP™ Training courses teach you to reframe every belief! That would take forever! Your time is precious!
Sunev Got it! Themes are good! Yeah!
FullStop Just keep it simple. Right?
Mezmer That's right!
Sunev Yeah, FullStop!
Mezmer I haven't got time to go through all my beliefs since birth! That's not living to me!
Sunev I don't either! I've already been there/done that once!
Jonathan Awwwww -- why not 612-step reframe them all?
Mezmer I want to keep doing all sorts of wild and crazy things! And if my unconscious mind stops me at one point, I simple use change work then, not every minute of my day!
Sunev That's cause you're a wild and crazy guy!
Jonathan Wild & crazy, like, rearranging sock drawers!
FullStop LOL
Mezmer But if all you have to live for is to go to therapy, get out of my way! I think everyone here wants to LIVE PASSIONATELY!
Insider Change-work = Hard Work. I get the universe to do it for me!
Sunev How Insider?
Insider Expectation?
Mezmer Hehe! Now what was identity... your other mind continues to ponder... is it what I am or is it what am doing... that makes others to perceive who I am? And is "I" static? Or is it a continuous process? Now as you lets your other mind to continue to integreate all the learnings and under standings.. throughout the coming days and weeks and months..perhaps... dream ing and dream about learning new behaviors from others... seeing yourself become more fluid and successful... and choosing suitable role models... and letting your other mind incorporate the distinctions hear that you can... can you not? Do this at a quicker rate and apply it to your life, and others' life and lives ahead into a trance-forming experience... That it is you and what you are doing that brings about you... and if you... change... your behaviors... I wonder if... I really... wonder how quickly... you will change. SO you find yourself being the focal point of change not always looking at others for solutions... but instead to your... inner wisdom. So forget to remember what I said...as your other mind ponders...
Some notable Guests in Attendance
Jonathan I wanted to take a few moments to recognize the presence of several attendees -- before we offer attendees the opportunity to ask Mark some questions & then close for the evening! Let's welcome & thank John La Valle (PureNLP)! Thanks for coming to listen to Mark!
PureNLP No worries, mate, enjoyed it, Mark
Jonathan Dom Luzi (DLuzi)
DLuzi Thank you Jon!
Jonathan And of course Goddess Kathleen La Valle (NLPSGI) who had to depart earlier!
DLuzi Thanks Mark
PureNLP The goddess says "g.nite" and "thanks, Mark!" And thanks to Jonathan for another really packed chat!!
Jonathan And lots of other regular & very wonderful people who come here frequently: Tranzpupy, Sunev, Fullstop, ORIgami, Odin, Grendal, _richard_, and others!
ChairmanX Thanks Mark, got a lot out of it.
Upcoming Seminar Events!
Jonathan OK! Next on the agenda is to let everyone in on some GREAT NEWS...
PureNLP Oo Oo what is it?
Sunev What? What?
Jonathan John La Valle will be co-training with his partner... what's that guy's name... oh... yes -- Dr. Richard Bandler... in Hollywood -- this summer -- for the concurrent Practitioner & Master Practitioner trainings... Check out NLP™ Seminars Group International & the First Institute of NLP™ & DHE™ for details!! And of course the subsequent Charisma Enhancement training as well!!!
PureNLP Yeaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!
Sunev That sounds like fun!
Jonathan Now -- a few other goodies. A few other goodies about some of my activities....
PureNLP Oo Oo
DLuzi Woo Hoo!!
Jonathan Mark & I have been plotting & planning behind everyone's backs... to bring me down to Australia this Summer (their Winter), so I'm doing 2 weekend trainings in Sydney & Melbourne in July!
Mezmer WoooHoooo!!!!
Jonathan Details are at my Australia Trainings page. They are situated nicely right after the dates of the fantastic Hollywood trainings!
Sunev Jonathan, you lucky (Tasmanian) Devil!
Cit LOL!
PureNLP Yea!!! Yeaaaaa more devils!! NJ needs ones that work!!
Jonathan So, watch out, DROP-BEARS!
Mezmer Hehe!
PureNLP Drop bare? Ahem, excuse me!
Jonathan Also, I'll be in London -- May 28-30, for an NLP™ & Knowledge Engineering weekend!
PureNLP Yea London!!! Yeaaaa!!!!!!!!!
Sunev Mr. World Traveler!
PureNLP Mr. Passport stamped on every page!!!
Braqish Is that near Cleveland?
PureNLP It's near Albany. They speak English there, ya know...
Jonathan London UK! I may teach them something about language. Like, how to butcher it. Well, we Americans ("Merkins") know a lot about screwing up their language.
Contacting Mark Stanarevic on your own!
Jonathan Mark! Great material tonight. How can people reach you if they'd like to know more about what you discussed?
Mezmer They can email me here: futurepotential@bigpond.com. And I can be reached at this phone number: +61 - 03-9391-9492 . I'm on my way out, so thanks for a fantastic chat!
Jonathan It's been deeee-light-fulllllllll! Thank you Mark for your time, efforts & energy -- and thanks to everyone else who showed up for the fun!
PureNLP Sure has!!!! A good ride kind of evening...
Urp Thanks Jonathan & Mark!
IRC CHAT OVER!

[ Back to Top ] [ Back to Chat Index Page ]


All material is ©1997-2007 Jonathan Altfeld, unless otherwise noted. All rights reserved.