Chat Log: Featuring Mark Stanarevic
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IRC Chat Log, March 14, 1999
| Mezmer | Hello, everyone! How well are we all doing!?
| Jonathan | Hi Mark! Welcome & thanks for doing a chat! Mark became a provisional trainer in 1997 -- at Richard Bandler & John La Valle's Charisma Enhancement training! He's here to chat with us about advanced behavioral pattern detection!
| FullStop | Hello Mark.
| Mezmer | My pleasure!
| ChairmanX | Welcome Mark
| Mezmer | Thanks Chairman! OK! With this chat I will be covering a lot of ground, and you might find your mind not being able to grasp all things consciously yet, and that I want you to notice it is a great thing to be able to let all things plant themselves and grow over time accordingly.
| ConneXion | I'm just asking this in case you don't mention it, what is your definition of a pattern?
| Mezmer | A typical definition of a pattern is a sequence that presents itself over time in coordinated rhythm. And you might be asking how do you know to calibrate this rhythm? And why am I using the term rhythm? Personally speaking to many people over the years in the NLP™ community and beyond, I have noticed a lack of many organic metaphors and have tried to incorporate the learnings and understandings from nature and other cultural origins into the trait of NLP™ distinctions. With the case of rhythms, we have many examples of naturally occuring rhythms in our own body and in nature itself. For example, noticing your heart beating in a sequence over time, and your breathing, all occuring within predictable periods depending on the context you have involved yourself in...
| Jonathan | What if the pattern has no perceptible rhythm, but evolves more as a set of similarities that occur repeatedly and arhythmically? That could be a pattern. Or a lack of patterns within a pattern.
| Mezmer | Good point! A rhythm can be stochastic as well. For example, random movements, heart palpitations, and yet that is still part of the greater rhythm. But because it does not fall in exact sequence as the majority of rhythm entrainment can, does it not mean that it does not contain its own spontaneous, chaotic rhythm? And what I am proposing is that this is still a pattern. Even though this rhythm may not be as predictable as the regular rhythm, in chaos theory we tend to refer to this as bifurcation points. A spin-off from the original pattern forming a more complex pattern originating from the base pattern. | OK, now, how do we relate patterns to humans? What are the rhythms or sequences of behaving that we respond to? How do we know we are behaving in a predictable sequence? How do we calibrate other people's patterns? How can we utilise these patterns? Now. Let these questions remain unconscious for now; I will covering them. Patterns can contain redundancy - Patterns which contain two many steps for an outcome where only a couple of steps are required. Now....An interesting question was asked to me several years ago. And that question was "What is I?" And actually Gregory Bateson asked that question to John Grinder and Richard Bandler. Dweizal | A nominalisation?
| FullStop | The difference that makes the difference?
| Jonathan | "What Is Eye?" A small orb, designed to aid vision.
| Mezmer | My 1st response as well was a noun. And when I took a close look, a realized deep down inside that this "I" is a process. How do we do "I"? What series of behaviors do we assume or produce to identify with "I"?
| FullStop | Ahh.
| Mezmer | So as you now start to look at yourself and others as patterns of fluid motion and behaviors, how surprised will you be to find predictable sequences occuring when communicating with yourself and others?
| Jonathan | Not surprised at all.
| Mezmer | Over the years being involved with NLP™ I have noticed a lot of control patterns occuring. And many people have come into the NLP™ community with the intention of -- putting it bluntly -- controlling people. Now what I have noticed with the intention of my own behaviors, when 1st learning NLP™, was that I wanted to have all the tools and techniques to be able to control and do all the magic that Richard Bandler and all the others assumedly did in the early days! Including - anchoring other people to do things for me. Not that there is anything wrong with that; what I found interesting... very interesting... was that when I asked myself "What is the intention of my outcomes?" I found that I had to do a lot -- a lot -- of personal change work on my own patterns, before even attempting to sort other people out... now this is where we go into deep waters, folks! Now...this is where this becomes even more interesting! Everyone still listening with their other mind?
| Jonathan | What other miiiiind? Oh, thaaaaat one!
| abcdefgh | No, not that one... the OTHER one...
| Mezmer | All Zoned Out, Folks... Good! Now... I was watching a Richard Bandler video 3 years ago titled "Time & Metaprogram Changes." And I believe on that video or the one about "Building Generalisations," Richard was describing how people built generalizations. And in tracking/noticing people's sorting patterns, he warned "do not try these techniques on yourself!" He even wrote that on the blackboard!
| FullStop | LOL!
| Mezmer | Since patterns are recursive, they loop back on themselves. The challenge is that while extensively tracking the source of patterns in your own neurology, you can literally put yourself in a spin, so I warn again: "Be very careful!"
| Jonathan | Does everyone get what Mark means by recursive?
| Gunny`, Sunev, SirBound, Dweizal, Urp, bridge, tranzpupy | yes
| Xanika | No.
| Jonathan | Recursive means (in this context) patterns that loop back on themselves. Computer Science folks'll have no problem with the concept.
| FullStop | Yes it loops back on itself.
| Insider | Patterns that include themselves
| Mike_P | Yeah...like saying TTP stands for The TTP Project! Writing a function that includes itself in its definition.
| Gunny` | Can you give an example when it loops back on itself?
| Jonathan | Here's an example of a recursive pattern. I was thinking back to a pattern that used to happen. The problem I'm thinking of was that every time I'd think about a conversation I had that didn't go well, I'd end up feeling bad about it, back then, and then saying something in my head in awful tonality... And then, I told someone about it. And that conversation didn't go well. So I thought back on the conversation that didn't go well, and I felt bad back then about it and had to say critical things in bad tonality to myself about how I felt bad about prior conversations and then said things in bad tonality about it. Sheesh. STOP! No more! OOOOOOOoooooh AAaaaaaaaaahhhh... better tonality, clean the palate! Go into neutral & then into better, & better! So I went recursive in that example, and it took a bit of a pattern interrupt to break out of it. And go meta.
| PureNLP | Know more!
| SirBound | That really helped clear it up for me! I have done the same type of thing and that drove the idea home.
| Mezmer | Nice example, Jonathan! Thanks!
| Jonathan | Please explain how this process you're describing helps with getting away from recursive patterns, Mark!
| Mezmer | I believe all patterns are recursive, Jonathan. The other question I would propose is: "How do we operate out of more useful patterns?" For example: With the tonality example you gave before, you interuppted an example of a recursive pattern, and what I am proposing is that if you do not work at the level of intent, at figuring out what the orginal outcome for the pattern was, then it will cycle back and forth. You see, AS a child, we all learn things from observing our environments and becoming adults. There are many learnings and associations that were once useful for us, but as an adult in our new contexts, because the old learnings remained unconscious, they perhaps have hindered us in some way. E.g phobias of water, perhaps of being thrown into the water as a child -- now as an adult, that phobia would not be useful. So in many instances I have tracked the source of my own patterns and linked them to memories of early experiences as a child or teenager or an adult "imprint experience." | And being able to go back in time and to put in more useful learnings for the current context can address the intent, and in many cases, the reason we have many patterns that typically hinder us is because of our biological survival needs, and the need for our unconscious (through what has happened in one-trial or many trial-learnings) to generalize those over time. Now, hindering was useful at one time to stop us falling in and drowning, but if you want to enjoy a swim now, it would not be useful. So a simple technique involves asking yourself the intention of the pattern, and you would be surprised in many cases for a picture to pop up, or a voice or strange feeling. Carefully pay attention to what is going on in your own senses during this time of questioning. If you find that a memory comes to the front of your mind, about an interesting experience that you once had, and that there is a relationship between that experience and how you are behaving now, wouldn't that be interesting? Xanika | I must say that it sure would be.
| Maxin | It happens all the time.
| Mezmer | I don't want to set a precedent about digging up archaeology. And it is useful to separate the learning from the understandings, if it's affecting you in some way unconsciously that you didn't realise before. Again, the first step is to establish a clean state (A Lifeline), before tracking any personal patterns. A Lifeline is basically about anchoring a clean uptime state, associated to your present awareness or context. That's where you "Feel totally grounded." Once you now find a time in your past where you now have felt that experience of being grounded and in the present, Anchor it! A lifeline being a definition of a clean/grounded/present uptime state!
| SirBound, Sunev | OK.
| Insider | Establish a lifeline for *what*? I need an outcome.
| Mezmer | For the outcome of it being a resource for if you ever feel the need to come back to the present during any personal change work, including pattern tracking.
| Jonathan | OK, so you have a first step of establishing a clean state, a lifeline.
| Mezmer | Correct Jon. Find a time in your past where you felt totally grounded and clear. Assume we have a lifeline. Now what we would typically do then is resort to a number of techniques.
| Gunny` | What do you mean by a clean state?
| Mezmer | A state associated to the context of being grounded and not interfered by any other thoughts. Now, if you're ready, we're going to track the imprint experience of a couple of patterns that people don't consider productive. Now, having found that memory, you could, simply, take some resources from the present -- like a time when you were confident & strong -- and you had total resolve, nothing could stop you! And anchor that feeling with perhaps a squeeze of one of your fists! Now, can I have a volunteer to run through this process?
| Paolof | Sure! Yes, I'll do it!
| FullStop | OK, you want to run through a process with me?
| Mezmer | 1st Step: Remember a time when you were confident and totally resolved!
| FullStop, Paolof | OK, got one.
| Mezmer | And amplify those feelings strong. And anchor it... with your fist; you choose which one.
| FullStop, Paolof | OK.
| Mezmer | Now, I want you to think of a sequence of behaviors that you typically engage in, that you would consider unproductive to you now.
| FullStop, Paolof | OK, got one.
| Mezmer | Now, go inside, and ask yourself "What is the purpose of this pattern?" And notice what images come to your mind.
| Paolof | Very interesting!
| FullStop | Ok.
| Mezmer | Now, did you get any images or voices?
| Wendiii | For me, it says "it is the only one I know."
| FullStop | I had both an image, and internal dialogue. As well as a Kinesthetic response.
| Paolof | Feelings and images.
| Mezmer | Great! Now... I would like both of you to go back to a time just before that memory took place, the one that just came up, and then, fire off that anchor of confidence and resolve!
| FullStop | Whoa. It changed position.
| Paolof | Very nice!
| Mezmer | Now, notice how even thinking about the pattern that you had, changes magically into a different behaivour! Your unconscious chooses which one!
| FullStop | Yes it does!
| Paolof | I see myself doing something more resourceful and I feel more empowered to accomplish it.
| Mezmer | Now who says change is slow and boring?! It can be exciting and quick!
| Jonathan | That was very quick!
| Mezmer | Now, also, notice you don't need to use a timeline as a metaphor.
| FullStop | It went from feeling discourged and seeing failure to seeing success, and feeling a mild confidence.
| Paolof | Should we fire off the anchor in real time, as soon as we encounter the cue for the old pattern?
| Mezmer | Good question. Paolof, once you have fired off the anchor, you have changed the way your brain responds to the imprint. So you might be surprised to notice, or not, that the memory that you had, had a memory behind it, hence the function of recursiveness. So what I would suggest if you by chance slipped into the old pattern, find out the memory behind the other memory, and in some cases, there is a whole chain!
| FullStop | And part of the key is to go back to just before that pattern you say?
| Mezmer | That's right! The brain is a neural network, there are a whole chain of associations! What's to stop you from discovering the links that cause a trigger to a pattern? It depends on how much discovery you're willing to put into it; the unconscious is vast in its vast associations. I'm not recommending archealogy digging; Its better to reframe old imprint expereinces, and then LOOK FORWARD to what else you can be doing with your precious time! As RB says "build propulsion systems!"
| Paolof | So really you are only dealing w/ one situation if you slip back into old pattern or didnt have the right cue?
| Mezmer | So yes, in many cases, a simple imprint experience can be enough to trigger off a whole pattern. So change your feeling toward that one, and move on. Don't waste your time digging.
| Paolof | I see, Yes, thank you! Wow! OK next question: How do we assure success in real time. Next time the situation occurs?
| Mezmer | That's an easy one! Fire off the anchor. You see, The old pattern that you had... depends upon a certain feeling for it to work, like with Jonathan's tonality example... he changes the feeling of the voice, and it changed the pattern! So by firing off the anchor in real life, you will have a different feeling, which changes the rule for that pattern!
| Paolof | Wow! I get it! Thank You! :)
| FullStop | Is it important how we question about the patterns?
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