Chat Log: Submodalities & Synesthesia!

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Submodalities
IRC Chat Log, December 30, 1997

Submodalities & Synesthesia
Jonathan I was at Dinner minutes ago with a friend of the family... and I was chatting about what I was going to be talking about and opening up discussion on tonight here in the channel... she has no NLP experience and had no idea what the two terms above meant anyway, so it gave me an opportunity to explore some ways into the topic. Anyone wanna throw out their understanding of the terms? Lets get some common definitions out of the way!
greyhound I don't remember hearing synesthesia in NLP, but from what I know, it is when you have an experience in one sense as a result of an experience in another..
Dan_25 When i think of submodalities, i think of visual, auditory, and kinesthetic representations. . . and also the gustatorial and olfactory, though not as strong ;)
Jonathan Yes... Any others?
greyhound A submodality is a quality of an experience in a modality
Stile Submodalities are the details of the modalities (the senses); distance, size, vividness
Jonathan Yes.
kalie When two modalities run together or one seems to trigger another
Jonathan Modalities are Visual, Auditory, etc; i.e. just another name for rep systems
Dan_25 I look forward to developing an understanding of synesthesia this evening
kalie I mean two
Jonathan ;) So subModalities are the little controls we have to adjust how a rep system stores information about an experience, then? Is that an acceptable combination of the answers above?
greyhound Sure
Jonathan OK. We can come back to it if we add to the definitions later.
kalie A smell triggers taste.
Jonathan Synesthesia!
Dan_25 I'm not comfortable with "little controls", I'm picturing knobs and tuners, but I can continue with my interpretation that is fairly consistent with this one.
greyhound A loud noise makes you jump?
Jonathan Different, greyhound.
Stile That's an anchor, right?
Jonathan Yes. OK Dan. Lets stick with Stile's definition then.
kalie A loud noise creaates a feeling
greyhound OK
Jonathan Details of experience. The qualities of each rep system. In fact, before we get into Synesthesia... lets cover a few. VISUAL SUBMODALITIES -- name 'em folks
greyhound Size, distance, brightness, coloredness...
PlayR Color, size, fuzziness, location, associated/dissociated
Jonathan Detail, texture
Dan_25 Shape, framed, 3d/2d, perspective, focus
Jonathan Contrast. Great examples!
greyhound Texture, a synestesia?
Jonathan Yes; we're not there yet, greyhound.
Jonathan Movement? border, shape, location... ;) ok we've got a bunch of good ones then...
kalie Frame or panorama
greyhound Someone once told me my perceptions are skewed
Jonathan How about auditory submodalities?
Stile Pitch, location, loudness
greyhound Clarity, loudness, direction, pitch
Stile Timbre, Internal/external
Jonathan Tim...BERRRrrrr! lol (big image & lots of noise!)
greyhound Intonation, overtones, harmonics, distance, movement
Dan_25 Volume, pitch, timbre, location, Tempo
PhilAlex Distortion?
Jonathan How about mono/stereo? duration?
PlayR Tonal/digital = Tones vs Internal dialogue
Jonathan PlayR explain please?
greyhound Single source, many sources, wall outlets, easy chairs
Jonathan One more -- Inflection -- what gets emphasized or analog-marked... OK, on to: Kinesthetic (Kino) Submodalities?
Stile Position, texture, pressure
greyhound Temperature
Jonathan Movement or motion
Dan_25 Location, sensation, movement, intensity, volume
Jonathan Let's qualify what kinds of sensation...
kalie Location, tempeture. vibration
greyhound Mass
Jonathan Like what Stile already covered
greyhound Volume?
Jonathan Ooooh, Kino Volume! Yeah! As in... intensity, I suppose...
Dan_25 My map, volume as in the amount of space the kino uses in its presence
greyhound OK
Jonathan Ahhhh better, yes -- you guys are ahead of me on that one...!
kalie Contrast -- e.g. one knee to another
greyhound That's a good one
Jonathan ;) thanks! alright... how about duration too? things change thru... time...
greyhound Doh!
Stile Hehehe
Jonathan Alright.
greyhound pleasure, pain?
kalie time a sub-mod?
Jonathan Pleasure and pain can be defined in terms of the other sensations more accurately. I think many people will describe the two as having many of the same components.
greyhound hmmnnn -- ok
Jonathan do you think? Tell me differently if you think otherwise, I'm definitely interested in alternative understandings of it.
greyhound makes some sense; some people like what other people think of as painful
Stile it makes sense... we're drawn towards some submod combinations and repelled from others -- like in propulsion systems
Jonathan yes... thats what I was thinking but this could be useful to draw out for another minute or two... (useful for later in the discussion)
kalie sub mods arn't subjective
greyhound but doesn't what you feel cause you to do things, or can you skip that and just see=>do , or hear=>do
Jonathan depends on the person but now you're adding in motivational strategies. We can go there later if theres time...
greyhound k
Stile hehe
Jonathan I want to cover mostly (and you folks can redirect elsewhere if you want to as a group!) the way we can optimize our accessing of memories and adjustment of submods through a more thorough understanding of synesthetic triggers, without dealing with beliefs and strategies... at least, tonight... is that an acceptable approach to the group?
Stile sounds delicious
Dan_25 can we define a synesthetic trigger for mutual agreement?
greyhound ok
kalie y
Jonathan sure I was waiting to go to SYNESTHESIA until we were through with the submods ;) we can go there nooooooooowwwww lol
kalie two driver modalities in the context of the experience
Stile hehe
Jonathan Ooooh, nice one kalie
Dan_25 sorry, your last statement sounded like a transition, oops! :) ok. . . can you define a "driver modality"? :)
kalie driver- primary
Stile the "main" modalities of an experience
greyhound yeah, whats that?
Dan_25 okay, that's where I was
greyhound lead system?
Jonathan Synesthesia is the combination of two or more representational systems as concurrent elements of an experience, either in the moment or in memory. The "now" moment can be synesthetic too, right?
Dan_25 so whatever 2 of the three modalities is most present in the experience itself?
kalie the lead modality triggers the others
Jonathan Sure, it can.
greyhound whats driver modality
kalie in synesthesia they co-mingle
Dan_25 is this something i already know with a new label, or is it something beyond what most nlp texts discuss?
Jonathan Something you already know...
kalie The primary and usually first modality is driver
Jonathan lets keep the terminology minimized -- or at least balanced with real-world accessible descriptions of what we're talking about...
Stile i think Using your brain discusses it
kalie basic practioner level nlp
Jonathan OK, FULL STOP for a second please.. lets come up with an example. The gal I was chatting with earlier.. said, "what do you mean..."
greyhound of course she did :)
Jonathan I said, can you recall a time when you said something which turned out to be really embarassing, and you wished you could undo it? And everytime you had thought about it or ran it over into your head... the feeling got worse? She said OOOOOhh yeah, I said, where's the sound coming from? she said, well, its in my head, I guess. I asked her if she could repeat the thing she heard internally... but move it out to her shoulder, and she smiled, and said maybe... She was trying. I said, what about turn the volume down... she said yeah...
Stygian Why does Ross always say "Full Stop" every few sentences he rights now?
greyhound I don't care Sty, please leave him out too. I don't even care if he is here right now
Jonathan (folks please send comments like that privately to the person you're responding to)
greyhound k
Stygian Sorry I thought it was some kind of NLP
Dan_25 it's a command to completely stop all thought proceses now and listen to what is about to be said, and as you do that now, you'll understand what it means
Jonathan I said, "OK, what about moving the voice down to your elbow, turning the volume down and the pitch way up?" She kind of stared at me like a deer caught in headlights ;) ...and here's the magic: I said, "can you visualize a tiny you, sitting on your elbow, dressed in a clown suit, saying that thing with a high pitch, in low volume...?" She grinned, and said "yeah..... NOW I can...." OK. Real world example over! When I added in the visual for her, in combination with the auditory adjustments, she was able to make the changes easily.
greyhound Full Stop
Jonathan ;)
greyhound i c
Dan_25 and that's use of syynesthesia?
Jonathan Now. That is one use of synesthesia yes.
greyhound she had difficulty with just the auditory?
Jonathan The example as described doesn't get into whether she did the change fully synesthetically or whether the visual was more of a trigger for the auditory construction...
greyhound He wanted to see her in a clown suit and talking deep
Jonathan but because it involved multiple rep systems, from a HIGH level, it was synesthetic.
Dan_25 ok, that fits comfortably into what I already have as apart of my map with a shiny new label :)
greyhound will she do that in future embarrassments?
Stile she now has the choice to do it again =)
Dan_25 did you future pace and see her response to the memory afer this?
Jonathan Of course, Dan... ;)
Dan_25 was waiting for that part :)
Jonathan It was presented in the structure of an educational discussion, so she knows she can do this... again... and she understands experientially how it makes the embarassment laughable... Now. Thats one form of synesthesia, where overlapping rep systems can ease the changes to -- or accessing of -- memories... Another form is when two or more systems are accessed essentially concurrently.
greyhound Ok, now what do I do with the little clown girl I have on my elbow? Can I keep her, she's kinda cute
PlayR for traumatic memories?
Jonathan When I memorize a phone number, I do three things at once...
Stile see it, dial it, hear it?
greyhound how do you feel a phone number?
Jonathan I see myself pressing the numbers... I feel the keypads on my fingertips... and I feel the motion in my fingers...
greyhound all the numbers feel the same -- hmmnnn -- position -- relative to the 5 key, or something
Jonathan yes! and I hear the tones... at the same time as I hear the #'s said in my head. sure. Make sense?
greyhound ok
Jonathan So basically in that example... I'm just using as many senses as possible to make the # stick in my head! (just read your clown girl comment, greyhound -- thats really funny) Alright.
greyhound make it melodic, might help.. 8675309..
Stile how do you attach the name to the number?
Dan_25 yes. . . i repeat the number, find a numerical relation with the numbers (year/date/something), and then play "connect the dots" with the numbers on the dial to create an image of the numbers
greyhound I usually sing the number, sorta, now that I think of it
Jonathan Can anyone remember some other examples of Synesthesia?
greyhound more/less purple
Jonathan Dan thats a complex strategy, but hey if it works for you, ;)
Dan_25 to me, yours is a little complex, but i can see how it works :)
Jonathan LOL Dan, ya-got-me
Dan_25 ok, i'll let ya go now :)
greyhound I found a powerful one with me once... I have a really bad reaction to images that have the lower left magnified.. I moved the magnification to my right.. and I felt good. same image...
Jonathan Interesting submod qualification greyhound.
greyhound now that I think of it, I don't think I have a problem with that anymore
Jonathan LOL
greyhound I forgot all about it till you asked
Jonathan I wonder if another sensory rep system helped you change that... ;)
greyhound hmmmnn
Jonathan Anyone else?
Dan_25 i would love for someone to share a similar technique using synesthesia to learn names/faces.. . :)
Jonathan Ahhhh....
Stile when i prepare to break a brick, i feel what it will be like to go through it at the same time i see what will happen
greyhound my roommate has this stamp that he stamps "idiot" on the forehead of anyone that smokes..hahaha
Stile wow nice one =)
Jonathan LOL!
greyhound he's sorta difficult
Jonathan I know people that stamp names on foreheads too. That seems to work for many people!
greyhound I wonder if that would work for me
Dan_25 i did try that one, but apparently i need to involve another modality as well ")
greyhound I'm an emotional guy, everything seems to need a feeling aspect to it, I feel like Hellen Keller
Jonathan What about saying the name... seeing the name stamped on the forehead, and... (this one can get a little creative)
greyhound I can hand carve it... feel each letter :)
Stile me too... i feel my hand write things as i watch it write
Jonathan If it doesn't uniquely qualify the person, then it doesn't help much; but if you can make a simple metaphor from the name... then you can add specific qualities...
greyhound maybe a typewriter :) keys smacking their foreheads
Dan_25 maybe different fonts for different folks. . . anyway, don't let me bring us too far off topic
kalie i create it in the air (upper left) then read it backward
greyhound gotta treat new people better anyway. Maybe a paintbrush?
Jonathan Oooh, fonts... now thats kewl... OK. {moving on} Mozart was known to have heard, seen, and felt a symphony concurrently before ever writing it down...
greyhound hmmnnn, no, thats what I do when I forget
Jonathan So lets take stock of where we are... we defined the terms... we gave a LOT of submodality qualifications... We've covered two types of synesthesia... starting with something in one rep system, having difficulty, then overlapping into a different rep system to help maximize the efficacy of the task we're after... or adding others in to help cause us to remember things more effectively...
greyhound so what do I do with this clown girl? (just kidding)
Stile she's your slave forever... so anything you want ;)
greyhound I don't want her to be a slave :(
Dan_25 she's just there to entertain you with your most embarrassing moments
Jonathan She's so small though... I mean, just big enough to sit on your elbow.
greyhound she was ok, but now theirs a volkswagon with her
Jonathan Can anyone think of other Synesthesia examples or purposes?
greyhound er, theres
grazzhppr i associate them with something - usually visual
greyhound no, I like her small
Jonathan OK...
grazzhppr ie: Joan - I think of Joan of Arc - or at least the painting of J of A
Stile to shift submodalities (i don't visualize well and it helps me if i feel something and then transition into seeing it)
Jonathan now that we've covered a number of topics here I want to chunk up a bit and deal with the purpose of using these tools! When I think of submodalities... nahhh.... when YOU think of submodalities... do you do it consciously?
Dan_25 and by implication stile, i think that would take an individual into a deeper altered state (dare i say trance?)
Stile yes :)
greyhound sometimes
Jonathan I think that as your skills with NLP increase... and they have, haven't they...? ...the extent to which you intentionally think, "OK I'm increasing the brightness Visual Submodality" reduces dramatically.
Dan_25 only when you want it to now i suppose :)
Jonathan You just DO it. You make the changes.
greyhound I Can, heh
Jonathan You go inside and you discover what isn't right about what you want to begin to change more effectively than you had... not yet... begun to do it better and better and louder and louder and adjusted the location of things...
Dan_25 they are automatic, yes jonathan, this has occurred tremendously over the last year for me
Jonathan and wondered just how you might feel if you right now right there... did a FULL STOP ;)
Stile and doubled it... and doubled it again? doh
Jonathan and suddenly think of something you want to feel a LOT more pleasure about. Something that happened in the last year, say. Something that you didn't feel good about then, or afterwards, but want to feel GREAT about. ;) And find out how you experience it.
greyhound I just made another clown girl for my left elbow :)
Jonathan Find out if its pictures or sounds... or feelings first... but probably the former... and if you were feeling pain in the past... regarding this thing you want to change your perceptions about. I want you to find out what the qualities of the pain are, while visualizing the process of looking inward for the pain... in a DISSOCIATED WAY, find out what the KINO qualities of the pain were, discover how close many of them are to pleasure submodalities... Take another experience in which you experienced pleasure... LOTS of pleasure... and get those kino submods... I'm very clear on how I want to get rid of that crap! And then look to MUCH BETTER much more positive things! You can do it with verbal approaches or you can do it in resource triangles or whatever. Many people want to NEUTRALIZE negative feelings associated with particular experiences... so that they have access to the information associated with those memories.
Stile can't you just do the phobia cure on it?
Jonathan SURE! We can party and go RIGHT for the pleasure and avoid it completely.
greyhound I didn't have anything positive with me went I "went down"
Jonathan Stile, the phobia cure is NOTHING more than double-dissociation combined with reverse visualization.
Stile exactly. hmmm that's another submod... going in reverse
greyhound and I think I stirred up alot of negative stuff and brought it back up with me
Jonathan Many clients really desire having the existing crap still around, withOUT negative emotion associated with it! Its often what they desire more than just going for the gusto!
greyhound I would be one of those clients sir. I value all my crap.
Dan_25 it's a little funny, when i first got into nlp and did those exercises, they had a tremendous impact on me, and i think that process generalized to all experiences you are labelling as "pain". . . now i'm seeking more intense pleasure and the ability to share it with others :)
Jonathan so I hope we've come to some understanding on this. The reality of doing NLP with a lot of people, unfortunately, I guess, is that many people would simply like to just eliminate the pain associated with important experiences. And we CAN GO BEYOND that to PLEASURE, but its GOOD to neutralize the negative first.
Dan_25 the "painful" ones remaining, if there are any, are not currently accessible. . . from my world model anyway, back to the program :)
Jonathan And the fastest way to do that -- with OTHER PEOPLE -- is often a touch anchor for the dissociated discomfort, plus a touch anchor for a massively pleasurable experience, and ... forgive the JARGON... then do a KINESTHETIC Squash. Here's what that means: If you have the pain anchor, and the pleasure anchor, and you've tested both... then fire BOTH together. Hold them steady and watch their neurology mix up... then release the negative anchor.... and maintain the positive one for a little while... It will NEUTRALIZE the negative one.
greyhound anchors don't work well for me -- those wrist ones, etc. don't work
Stile greyhound: as their voice becomes clearer and more understandable, do you notice that the advice they will be giving you throughout your life is very valuable, and how well it will serve you for years to come?
greyhound would you listen to a clown? OK, they are *cute* clowns
Dan_25 if it resolves the issue and is ecological for the person, then yes, step out of the pain!
Stile can you anchor the associated state first and then the dissociated state and chain those?
Jonathan Sure...and by virtue of the "chain" you'd want to set up a gentler sequence from initial to pleasure... i.e., more interim states... that eases the flow from initial to final...
Stile maybe a state of contemplation and inner reflection on the meaning of life ;)
Jonathan Sometimes a shock state can be followed with anything. I like to follow up shock with surprise (has a humorous edge to it)! I can take that combo almost anywhere afterwards... Alright, folks! It's about that time. These chats sometimes get either tired or raunchy at this hour, so I'm going to close it out! Thanks for coming!
IRC CHAT OVER!

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