Chat Log: Belief Systems

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Belief Systems
IRC Chat Log, December 14, 1997

Getting Started
Jonathan ARIGHTY then... I believe we were going to talk about Belief Systems... And the question I wanna ask is... why should we do that? Because... they say that Why is an outdated question... that it doesn't help to ask why, and Budweiser agrees... but essentially... why is like a summary question.
Designer I'm not a total NLP expert, but I'll try to participate.
Jonathan So if we need to get more specific, we can do that!
Jonathan Belief Systems. What does it get us.... to evaluate the structure of belief systems? Answers?
Designer Why should we do that, as in, why should we talk about Belief Systems?
Jonathan ;) Lets get some ideas out on the floor! Alright... any answers? Guys... This is yes: "Yes!" This is no: "No!" This is Gee I dunno: "?"
Designer I believe ;-) it gives us a better understanding of the world we live in so that we're able to know how to achieve the things we want and learn to help those with us.
dav0d LOL
Jonathan Wow, all that eh? ;)
Designer heh
Jonathan Chunk down a bit, if you would...
Doraemon How about because Belief systems directly affect our lives, how we behave, and our capabilities...
dav0d I do it to see why i get defensive
Jonathan COOL answer, dav0d
Designer J-Alf, so we feel good? how's that?
Jonathan Thats another good one! OK! now we're getting somewhere. I'm thinking more along the lines of self-improvement.
Kay mmm.... so *others* feel good?
Jonathan Ooooooh, Kay -- that IS a good one ;) As an, IS this a useful belief? For me (if its my belief) For others, if its someone else's belief.
Designer kay: I would have it both ways. I believe in mutuality.
Jonathan Could that be helpful?
Kay mutuality. yes
Jonathan Hmmmm
Designer J-Altf: Can you expand on "this"?
Kay when I make someone -- uh, help someone feel good, I feel good too.
Jonathan so lets see whats next... how about... lets think about the ways in which NLP can help us to... evaluate and manipulate beliefs... (of course Designer ;)
Designer oop...he said the "m" word :-)
Jonathan Once we look at the structure of beliefs... we can determine if they're well formed. NLP teaches us things about how beliefs are structured, and whether we understand them in limited ways...! Manipulate is NOT a bad word. It comes with a negative stigma because its the INTENTION behind the manipulation which makes the difference. I give manipulation a REALLY GOOD name ;) ! So.
Kay oh, I think you do.
Designer J: In what way...my feeling is that some beliefs are completely rational and based on empirical evidence. How does NLP tell us if they're true?
Jonathan There are well-formedness structures... Thanks kay ;) So do you!
Designer J: Yes, you're truly right. Or not true
PlayR Truth!
Jonathan Designer... NLP allows us to ask questions around what constitutes a belief...
Designer re nlp
Jonathan and where that belief is held... and what it MEANS for us...
Designer I see
Jonathan so that we can determine if perhaps the belief is applicable in OTHER contexts... with other situations, but not present ones...! Lets keep this high level, and get into some specifics later because...
Kay we can find out that -- and I'm a newbie, remember -- we have beliefs that we don't believe in!
Jonathan kay, how very accurate that is!
PlayR That's ZEN -- but I believe you.
Jonathan in 1-2 hours we can't (thats a firm belief) learn all about how to change beliefs in 10-15 different ways but we can very effectively explore the topics of how belief systems are made and how they can be re-evaluated, for better reasons!
PlayR I believe that.
Doraemon Ah... So lets get on with it.
Jonathan ;) PlayR! OK! Now. Let's start with an example. Doraemon, give me an example of something you believe in!
Doraemon Alright... I believe that I don't have too good a self-image... not a good believe but well...
Jonathan Well chosen (not effective for you, perhaps... but a good choice to work on)! Now. Let me ask some directed questions, if I may...
Doraemon Yup... :)
Jonathan would you mind?
Doraemon not at all..
Jonathan ok So you told me what you believe you don't have. What do you believe you do have (in the same topic, just rephrase)
Doraemon I believe I have a ... bad self-image?
Jonathan ewwww
Designer lol sorry.
Jonathan ok I know you may HAVE HAD something like that, in your PAST... (easy reframe let me move on) -- (thanks for apologizing [to Doraemon], Designer, this is personal stuff here). So. Which sounds more appropriate to you:
Designer Doraemon: It was an oxymoron...I laugh at some people's deaths. Don't mind me.
Doraemon ... no offence taken... in any case, dun even know what lol is...
Designer Dora: It means "laughing out loud"...it's a word used loosely on IRC
Jonathan WOuld you like to (1) get rid of the BAD self-image? or (2) Get the TOO GOOD self image? Which gives you a more immediate match reaction?
Doraemon only two options??
Kay wots the TOO GOOD self image?
Jonathan He said he believes he doesn't have too good a self image. Doraemon?
Doraemon Can I say that I am working towards having a GOOD SELF-IMAGE?
Jonathan (wanna get thru these initial q's quickly ;) YES, I like that one. OK. What would it do for you to have that? Let me BACK UP! ;)
Doraemon Makes me feel better abt myself... more confident of myself as well.
Jonathan OK. That gets it fine, actually.. so lets see... If you had a much better self-image, you'd feel better about yourself, and more confident....
Doraemon yes...
Jonathan and what would that mean about you? Or what would that bring to you? Or... how would that change your behavior?
Doraemon I would socialise better... get better relationships, be more competent.
Jonathan kewl.
Designer yep
Doraemon thanks...
Jonathan sounds like a lot in life would improve in general. Sounds like your lot in life would improve in general. ;) Now. THAT is a well-formed belief. 3 parts. I'll get back to this.
Doraemon Sure..
Jonathan Moving backwards to pick up a loose thread... Do you always have a poor self-image? Or just sometimes?
Doraemon Not always.... often though.
Jonathan Oh, so there *are* times when your self-image is REALLY GOOD. Even if they aren't all the time.
Doraemon yup...
Jonathan hmmm. Does this seem any more manageable yet? ;)
Doraemon a little perhaps... for now... :) could get better...
Designer My self image is great when I watch Jerry Springer.
Jonathan (little NLP joke) Anyway, leaving the mood lifter aside... ;) Designer OK.
Designer :-)
Jonathan So we have a contextual thing going on here... When do you feel best about yourself (choose one, b/c I suspect you could find quite a few.... & if you started to sort thru your past and look for things that made you feel AMAZING, didn't you then you might begin to feel even better now... ;) But moving forward,
Doraemon ... erm... when I feel that I can do things better than others... when I have a higher status...
Jonathan as you think about those things... of being of higher status & reaching higher states... What if you were to remember those states of status before you went into situations where in your past you might not have felt as good as you want to feel now? Do you think your behavior might change in those future circumstances? Think about those things... no need to answer... OK.
Kay oh, interesting , J
Jonathan Bringing the group back together here... Now. How many people here know about the famous Swish pattern? Y or N, from everyone plz
Doraemon me here...
Kay me, me, I know!
Designer Not I
Doraemon Y.
Designer kay knows!
Jonathan ;)
dav0d n
Jonathan OK. Viktor? Erich? In any case, a quick description at a high level so we're on the same page: The Swish is a famous Compulsion Blowout NLP tool for eliminating compulsive behaviors. It has other uses.
vk7 Yes
Designer I think those two are in deep states
Jonathan The idea behind it is that the brain learns how to change, much better, very quickly.
Designer J: Very interesting
Jonathan So you take one picture of your compulsive behavior, and visualize a VERY rapid washout from the one picture into a MUCH more desired behavioral picture.
dav0d i agree
Designer J: Anything like "accelerated learning"?
Jonathan There's language patterns that help the process, and sound effects...
Designer ahh
Jonathan but anyway, you can do it 2-dimensionally, flat pictures held up in the air... OR...
Designer anchor colapsing
Jonathan there's something called the distance-based swish.
Doraemon Those are new terms comming in...
Jonathan Where you send the 1st picture off into the distance, so its tiny, and bring it up into the LOCATION of where you would normally place the BETTER behavior...
Designer cool
Jonathan Now, thats a lot of info. But you can use the latter type of tool, for CHANGING beliefs. No words. You just, take one belief that you KNOW is true... like the SUN is coming up tomorrow, and you find out where you place that picture in space. Get the brightness, the focus, the colors, the DETAILS (known as submodalities in NLP). WRITE THEM DOWN. THEN! you take a belief that you'd LIKE to believe is true but you know isn't... and you find out where that picture is.... in space around you... And then get the brightness, the focus, the colors, the submodalities of the less believed belief!
Designer That blends the emotions evoked by those two beliefs -- is that the purpose?
Kay ok...
Jonathan You can do a distance based swish... sending off the desired belief picture... and BRINGING that SAME PICTURE up into the LOCATION of the KNOWN belief, with the SUBMODALITIES SHIFTING into the submods of the KNOWN BELIEF!
Doraemon ... What happens to the submodalities when I have something that I believe is not true, yet would like it to be true?
Designer Oh, I'm not sure I understand yet...but keep talking, I'll get it sooner or later. :-)
Jonathan So the 2nd picture (desired belief) shows up in the location of the KNOWN belief, with the PICTURE CONTENT of the desired belief, but the PICTURE QUALITIES of the KNOWN BELIEF. It makes you believe the desired belief MORE. Sometimes, a LOT MORE. New stuff or old hat, kay?
Kay both! :-)
Doraemon ... could I ask a question??
Jonathan Give all that a try, folks. Take a minute or two.
Kay but if you take a belief and you make it really strong
Jonathan ;) yeaaaaaaaah
Designer And I thought it was the Vodka that made my parents believe I wasn't theirs.
Kay so you begin to act like it is true...
Jonathan mmm hmmmmmmmmmmmm (turning up the applause) ;)
Kay and I think what you believe comes true, but anyhow, you're acting like its true
Jonathan Milton Erickson pattern for inducing better behavior.
Kay then you ... maybe acting incongruently for what is actually thought to be true around you???
Jonathan Act "as if".
Designer kay: Is there limits to that in your view? Like what if you believed you were Elvis?
Jonathan Its only incongruent when you really don't believe it.
Doraemon And soon you won't
Kay Wot? I'm not?
Designer heh heh
Jonathan Guys, Elvis IS in the house.
Kay Ok. I believe that money comes to me in all different ways in abundant amounts! so I act that way.
Designer suuuure ;-)
Jonathan Me too! Thanks not to NLP, but to Stuart Wilde... ;)
Kay weird thing is, the money starts to act that way too.
Jonathan hehheh
Kay Oh, another Stuart Wilde fan!!
Jonathan S'funny kay
Designer heh
Kay and the boss gives you a big bonus and says... I don't know why, you don't do any (huff huff) more work than anybody else here! he he
Jonathan I love it! Is this true? Or desired behavior? lol
Designer lol
Jonathan Nice ambiguity -- which class will you be taking?
dav0d desired
Kay Whatcha teaching?
Jonathan Let's move on to more interesting uses of this stuff. Beliefs. For this I'll defer to Robert Dilts. We have several logical levels of understanding. This is quite useful for determining well-formedness conditions. About logical levels. There is the SPIRITUAL self. The core. Around which is the human Identity. Around which is a set of beliefs. Around which is a set of abilities / capabilities. Around which is a set of Behaviors/Actions. Around which is the environment.
Designer In that order?
Jonathan Yes. The application of these ideas is extensive, but for the purposes of the belief... system... we look more towards where beliefs are directed. So. Doraemon, your belief was at what level? You can believe something about any level, including beliefs.
Doraemon Hmm... I think it is around the behavior level...
Jonathan Behavior level. Well, NOW it is ;) lol
Kay I'm a girl.
Jonathan But at first, where was it kay's gender, like most of our own genders is usually associated with the Identity level. But I could be mind-reading, kay might understand gender as purely a Behavioral level
Kay I'll never tell...
Jonathan And then she'd be ignoring her ABILITY as a female to give birth
Designer Jonathan, we don't want to know! (grin)
Kay lol
Jonathan Well, you wouldn't want to engender trust among the genders...
Designer Rapport?
Kay Actually, now that you've begged, I see my gender in the *spiritual* level.... But I know that when a belief that is less than useful for someone, one of the most effective ways of adjusting the belief is to move it to another level (or address it from another level).
Designer haha
Jonathan One way to do that is to give a counter example to the belief which shows that its not as widely-held a belief as they'd like you to think. Also, do that within yourself. If you believe you've ever had arguments with yourself in your head -- have you? By the way, have you ever? You have, have you not?
dav0d I do.
Designer Moi?
Kay Yes, I do. (& me too)
I_am_Todd Todd does.
Jonathan Some of those voices are male and some are female.
Kay Oh, alright, you're right.
Designer I don't argue with myself. You guys are crazy. :-)
Jonathan WHy not increase the trust between them inside; it might increase the trust OUTSIDE
Designer Sorry, yes...I analize two thoughts as if I believed them
Jonathan Talk about multiple personality, THIS order has got to stop
dav0d I'm trying...
Kay In ter esting thought...
Jonathan So by gently nudging beliefs you hear from yourself or from others into different logical levels, you get to determine how useful that belief is. Or how easily adjusted.
Designer Jonathan...I have a question for you...tell me if I'm interrupting
Jonathan you are interrupting and its kewl; this isn't a lecture ;)
Designer Ok! lol I don't want to interrupt...I would like you to continue please. :-)
Jonathan Oh, ONE INTERRUPTION by ME, actually, Would it be OK with everyone if I were to want to put this up on my website? Please say Y ;)
Kay y
dav0d sure :)
Doraemon .... kays...
dav0d right now?
Designer Jonathan: Do I get 50% profit? go ahead! ..let me interrupt you 1 sec.
Jonathan go ahead Designer
Designer Jonathan...was that "Please say Y" strategic? Did you think about saying that or was it just talk?
Jonathan Just talk ;)
Designer I'm curious because I'm into advertising, and....oh...just talk. :-) Ok.
Jonathan But if you're interested in the fact that its an anchor for continuing on with the mini-seminar, yes.
Designer Too bad...I was hoping it had to do with NLP... ;-)
Jonathan Of course it has to do with NLP. I believe a lot of this stuff is just AUTOMATIC now.
Kay Oh, please keep this going.
Jonathan So I do it ALL the time.
Designer Jonathan...right! So it was strategic..ok good
Jonathan But I do make it my business to give valuable information... ;) So I appreciate your response. Now... moving along...
Designer cool
dav0d OK, noted.
Jonathan we've talked about belief systems being integrated with logical levels and how if you're gentle, and you take your time, you can help nudge things into different levels... you'll literally SEE the person change (unless its yourself and there's no mirror around) shift their physiology as they re-integrate the adjustment in thinking. Its quite profound.
dav0d Yes
Jonathan You can use this in sales, in therapy, in relationships... in... any form of influence or friendshp, or in personal change. Again, Its quite profound.
Doraemon Can we move from the what to the how?
Jonathan So. Submodality-based Distand-Swish Belief changes too... {"From the what to the how..."} give me an example of your question, if you would... And its time, after this question...
Designer It's time? (Time to what)
Jonathan Dora -- waiting on example of your question
Doraemon Sorrie I meant to say, how to shift the belief to different logical levels. And how to use it on others?
Designer J...I think he meant, how do you help nudge things into different levels
Jonathan ahhhhh OK.
Doraemon Designer... you got it!
Designer ;-)
Jonathan I'm patting Designer & Doraemon on their backs for good inter-communication & helping each other out ;)
Designer *high-five*
Doraemon *high-five*
Jonathan Let's take an example then. My relative calls me up and says, "I hate computers, whenever I get around them, they break!"
Kay Environment?
Jonathan I say, "what do they mean?" They say, "it means I'll never be able to work with computers or other electronic things."
Doraemon Abilities?
Jonathan Right... ;)
dav0d Belief
Jonathan (Feelings)+(CONDITIONS) ==means=> (RESULT) ==> IMPLIES ABILITIES. 3 parts (first part additive). Usually you just need [Conditions --> Result] ==> Implication, for a well-formed belief.
dav0d could you do another one?
Jonathan Well I'm not done yet... And its interesting, Dilts has actually mapped out where you can place/point to in the chain, depending on what specific Milton model violation you hear (Sorry, that was for the more experienced students in the group). What if I wanted to take Dad's belief up there, and change it so that it didn't presuppose limited beliefs forever... and only applied the belief to certain PAST circumstances? Think about that. How might I do that?
Doraemon Hmm.. Milton Violation = correct Meta??
dav0d ok
Jonathan Sorry, my error --- ;) Milton Patterm
Kay well, they used to break...until he got a new machine.
Doraemon okie... :)
Jonathan Each Milton Pattern can be identified as implying something inaccurate about a belief
Designer Jonathan, tell us, inquiring minds want to know!
Jonathan specifically somewhere in the chain above
dav0d change the conditions
Jonathan I'm trying to SPARK some creative thought here, I don't know how to solve the damn belief thats why I got you all in here so I could work on my relative's belief ;) just kidding
Designer lol Jonathan
dav0d :)
Doraemon Jonathan, are you talking about timeline here when you talk about the chain?
Designer I would say change the feelings
Jonathan Sure, Doraemon, time's involved too. OK, Designer, but how specifically?
dav0d show your relative why the computers broke when he there...
Designer Jonathan... by collapsing anchors...by linking positive experiences with negative, and that would make the negative emotion associated with the conditions absolete
Jonathan Time's involved b/c in the belief above, Dad thinks it applies in the future. SURE Designer! Anyone want Designer to define the words/terms he used? (just want to keep us all in similar pace)
dav0d yes
Designer For example You hate bowling because your past experiences have been that you lost repeatedly...every time you bowled and you feel inaduqate...and you speak like "I always suck at this game" So If you had 1 positive experience
Jonathan Riiiiight
Designer (Or any unrelated experience that has a lot of positive emotion associated with it)
Jonathan It's enough to provide a counter-example to the "ALWAYS" part of the belief!
dav0d ahhh
Kay The unrelated experience is the powerful part!
Jonathan It then allows you to consider the possibility of more frequent success.
Designer You would mix them together, or have the more powerful experience overpower the other by techniques like thinking of both of them at the same time
Jonathan People need to simplify situations & facts & patterns A LOT.
Designer yep!
Jonathan Its quite a deep need -- its one of the 3 things we do when we modify our understandings of reality. We GENERALIZE.
Designer I hope that made sense, I'm not an NLP expert
Kay what are the 3 things?
Jonathan kay you know this one, don't you? DISTORT, DELETE, & GENERALIZE.
Kay ok, I remember. Deletion, distortion, generalization
Designer Jonathan: That's the word! Generalization....racism/sexism...
Jonathan ;) Yep! I was nominalizing ;) LOL
Designer heh
Kay no wheelbarrow here
Jonathan Designer, who have you trained with? (lol kay) kay you make me laugh, and thats a firm belief
Kay Thanks,
Jonathan In fact, its all your fault I'm laughing, I take no responsibility for my own reaction ;)
Designer Jonathan: Just myself...I read a lot of either books or online material...learning from the experience of others
Kay I am ALL POWERFUL
Jonathan Wow, you're ripe for a training. Sorry to sound sales-ish, but you are ;)
dav0d In this case, you would point out to dad that in one case the computer did not break
Kay I think Designers doing great!!
Jonathan Yes, that's a good starting point
Designer kay...thanks :-)
dav0d OK, thanks!
Jonathan Thats a good very starting point but there's more you could do when was the last thing you remember
Designer Jonathan... lol, thanks...train me away
Jonathan Meanwhile, what else might I do with Dad...
Doraemon The "ALWAYS" Counter example
dav0d Also take him on a new field trip to the computer zoo to show him a positive experience?
Jonathan Yes, I'd walk him through a counter example perhaps, help him build a library of better experiences, eliminating the ALWAYS behaviorally... or, I'd take the ALWAYS, and turn it back around with emphasis.. as in... "ALLLLWAYS?????"
dav0d Yeah
Kay Gee, now I realize you gave us hints by the way you phrased the question.
Jonathan And they always go... well, not ALWAYS...
Kay right.
Jonathan which one, kay? I mean, I do that a lot, but why not show everyone else what you noticed...
Kay Agggh. Have to think.... well,
Jonathan oy hate thinking. ;)
Doraemon They ALLLWWAAYSS go "well, not always." ??
Designer hehe
Jonathan Good eye, Designer!
Kay the word "hate"
Designer Thinking hurts :-)
Jonathan You guys are starting to notice things more ;)
Kay very absolute.
Doraemon :)
Kay and whenever ... whenever = always ---->"every single time?"
Doraemon Can someone tell me something to say to an idiot who killed my connection that would give him a really bad day?
Designer Jonathan...I thought what you said about "act as if" earlier was interesting
Jonathan Yep ;) Sure. What you practice, Persists.
Designer Jonathan...in what circumstances do you do that, and how good does it work?
Jonathan If you don't believe you're beautiful, just act AS IF you are. You will be.
Designer Your body will change?
Kay That works!!! ;)
Jonathan Believe THAT, if you have to believe things that aren't NECESSARILY based in "truth" whatever that is.
Designer Or do you mean you will *believe* you are? haha kay
Jonathan If you're looking for solutions, you'll find em, if you're looking for problems, you'll find those too. I choose the former. Designer, YES, your body will change.
Kay the former in the dell
Doraemon you gotta know the problems b4 you know what solutions to look for right?
Designer True.
Jonathan You won't drop 30 pounds overnight (if you even had that much to drop) but there ARE REAL, qquantifiable physiological changes that occur. Get into the state, as fully as you can... that you believe you are beautiful.
Designer Jonathan...so your thinking is that the physical world answers to the mind?
Jonathan Doesn't need to be beautiful to EVERYONE. Just to you, and hopefully a few others. Its enough.
Kay I suspect the physical world answers to the Mind.
Jonathan yes, for the following reason: IN NLP, we say, the Map is not the territory. Right? Its one of the central NLP tenets.
Kay well, sometimes we argue about that...
Jonathan The Map is not the territory.
Kay but I agree...
Jonathan Our internal understanding is different than reality. ok. Well guess what,. What if we change the map, for the future...
Kay you got to put yr curlers in
Designer Jonathan...I haven't seen anyone become beautiful or change physiologically substantially...so are you saying this because you believe that there are many truths, or is it because you have experiences with people changing this way?
Jonathan The Territory... can BECOME the map... Designer, FULL Stop. What happens to people when they fall in love?
Doraemon heh?
Jonathan Ever watched someone fall in love overnight?
Doraemon Love at first sight?
Jonathan Sure.
Designer Sure
Jonathan Really? How did they change? People become more beautiful overnight.
Kay Designer... if people don't become beautiful by thought...
Designer Oh. I know what you mean, however,
Jonathan Their circulation improves. The skin tightens. The eyes brighten up. The lips thicken. The posture improves. The list goes ON and ON...
Kay its because they didn't believe they could, and didn't try.
Designer I'm not too sure about the belief that you can have a new leg if you had none before.
Jonathan Well, alright, but maybe modeling lizards would be useful in other contexts. I don't know... Are you so sure?
dav0d there are no absolute truths
Jonathan YES THANK YOU YES
Designer Jonathan...I have tried many times to
Jonathan there are no absolutes
Kay absolutely no absolute truths
Designer believe I could walk through a door and acted as if too...haha But my almost broken nose told me otherwise
Jonathan Got bruised, eh?
dav0d lol kay
Jonathan OK, well fine on that note -- but take this for granted: If you got into the state where you believed you didn't need it as much as people who take it for granted feel that they need two legs... I guarantee you your body will have begun to compensate for it in lots of other ways. Also, don't ask silly questions (growing a new leg). ;) Ask questions like.... I wonder how quickly and naturally your balance and the strength of your other leg could begin to dramatically enhance their own capabilities... almost to the point where, no matter if you use one leg or two... you might... amaze people with your human potential.. making THEM jealous for not having experienced human challenge enough to have handled life in the beautiful way you'll have begun to think about it in that new way...
dav0d i watched a movie about a boy who rode a bicycle across country with one leg -- neato
Doraemon Here you asked an imbedded question, the presupposes that the person's balance and strength would increase.
Jonathan I did a LOT Doraemon ;)
Doraemon I noticed... care to explain?
Jonathan Conversational Postulates..., embeds... presups... time distortion, future pacing... logical level adjustments... reframes & outframes
Doraemon erm erm.... detailed explaination would be interesting...
Jonathan kinda too much to go into here, without staying on topic.
erich logical levels:EBCBIS
dav0d so those are just examples in a sense...you doing it to us?
Kay I'm impressed.
Jonathan Write those down, look em up in an NLP book ;)
Designer Jonathan, sure, you're right that you may obtain the ability to use the other leg more effectively...what I question however is the belief by many in this industry that you can do anything you believe in. I think it's false because there are absolutes...but I do see your point.
Doraemon Alright.... ask you those questions later.... :)
Jonathan Designer: Those folks who you say believe they can do absolutely anything: There's a qualifier attached which you left out: "IF there's enough time to find a way." I already know that if one leg is shorter than the other, I can grow it longer.
Kay People have done that
Jonathan I have to go to a hospital, have them incise my thigh, slice my bone, etc and slowly, PAINFULLY, keep the sliced surfaces close enough to grow towards each other but always ajusting the gap. Until I grow it long enough. Takes a couple of months of course.
Designer Jonathan, I really don't think that's true. I think we have limits as human beings, and there is such thing as supernatural...I have many experiences that I didn't bring about with my believing in it... kay: grow a leg longer?
vk7 There is much better technology to grow legs, and other bones as well
Jonathan OK, I accept that your belief is useful for your frame of reference.
Kay Designer: Charles Fillmore...
Jonathan Great! lets stay on topic tho ;) Designer, you have a library of things you say you believed in fully, that didn't happen.
erich Designer:Super-NORMAL...everything is "natural"
Designer kay: Now that I could understand...since it's not automatic, the mind could instruct the body to place more meat or alter the bones in that area. vk...lol
Jonathan We could go through all, or one, and find out what the limitations were; you're probably correct about most but I bet with some that I'd find some incongruity, or perhaps time limitations that weren't practical.
Designer erich: I stand corrected.
Jonathan The presup is that there are no unreasonable goals, just unreasonable time-frames.
Designer Jonathan, is that an NLP™ presupposition?
Jonathan Yes.
Designer Ok.
Kay It's one of my presups!
Jonathan Ahhh, good kay!
dav0d Mine also :)
Designer I feel lonely...but that's OK. :-)
Kay I disagree that feeling lonely is ok
Designer Too many people believe they can do anything kay...haha
vk7 The force is with you!
erich kay:feeling *alone* is ok...lonely...well that's another story
Designer kay: I'm kidding...I agree that it's not OK. Well, at least not to me. I think it's OK only if I was OK with it. If I wanted it
Kay I think feeling lonely is like feeling hungry... its a sign that you need to do something to *love* someone.
Designer Kay...sure
Jonathan Kay is giving a LOT of information away ;)
Kay So, when you're hungry, eat. Free.
Jonathan Well there's always more... but this is a good place to stop! Thanks for coming, folks! See you at the next one!
IRC CHAT OVER!

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