Chat Log: NLP MetaPrograms & Flirtation

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Metaprog. & Flirtation
IRC Chat Log, November 26, 1997

NLP Metaprograms & Flirtation!
Jonathan ALRIGHTY THEN! Folks thanks for coming around.... As I mentioned by email... I wanted to cover this material under the guise of Flirtation and Rapport... but those of you who know something about NLP... know... that the tools are applicable to all manner of subjects. Tonight, I'm going to talk about how to read people's behaviors... in such a way.... as to allow you to begin to see more clearly... and hear more readily and with more acuity -- what people are telling you and what they actually mean.... and how it feels to be standing next to someone in a certain emotional state.... and I'm not sure what memories will begin to percolate as you read whats hear... and there... and when I ask for certain answers... at certain times... I'll encourage EVERYONE to think about things and give honest unconscious responses.... So does that sound like a plan? Y is good feedback...
Jstaguy, Cardio, Cirrus, glen_ster, alchemist, Beau-Hunk, mindfunk, pwr^^3, Mork, Brent, eyepatch, yes
Jonathan Kewl... Alrighty then... Right to the big picture. NLP has a topic called Meta-Programs. And they are aptly named... for they describe how people sort information in a very general way. Its not about eliciting Values. Its not about reframing. Its about stopping the internal dialogue inside your mind... and turning ALL the channels on outside your own self... and paying VERY close attention to all the information thats out there... and it is out there..... and allow it to filter through MUCH MORE OPEN filters than they were before you opened them up even more... and you can... ;) ... So as you think back to times when you paid some attention to a prospective mate or a business associate and perhaps there was a general shift... perhaps a concrete moment... when you stopped paying attention and really began to ask yourself questions inside your mind... about WHAT they possibly could have been thinking? All the time you're in there asking questions you're NOT focused on the outside... as much as you can be. Make sense so far? Y/N
ClintPunk, Beau-Hunk, Cardio, Mork, Cirrus, glen_ster, ELMO, Jstaguy, mindfunk, alchemist, Sai y
Jonathan So all this is about paying better attention. Paying much better attention can be a really wonderful thing.
ELMO sensory acuity
Mork Makes $$$ and cents
Jonathan yes it DOES, Mork!
ELMO sensory acuity?
Jonathan YES. We'll get into Sensory Acuity as a result of how we proceed. I want to jump right into an example. But before I do... I want to read you a definition, and discuss it briefly... Meta-Program: A level of mental programming that determines how we sort, orient to, and chunk our experiences. Our meta-programs, are more abstract than our specific strategies for thinking and define our general approach to a particular issue rather than the details of our thinking process. Now. Specifically.... Meta-Programs being MORE ABSTRACT than our specific strategies is an important concept, so stow that away inside your minds for a while! Example 1: Chunk Size
Mork Metaprograms are attention direction filters that determine how and what we pay attention to and at what levels....
Jonathan For 2 years I flew up to another city weekly... And I worked in one corporate setting where these people couldn't get anything done at all. So I went in there and I found out WHY.... they couldn't communicate. One guy would come in, and go.. "Well, we need to do better making deadlines." And the other guy would go, "right, but I get this date and its not based on anything so I have to explain it to him, I have to say, "here are all these things that need to be addressed, A B C and other things too..." and I look at the other guy and he says, "yah yah I know, but what I really want to hear is that we're just going to get it done." So clearly one wants details addressed and the other wants the big picture addressed. What went wrong? (answers are good here) ;) Anyone have any idea?
ELMO one guy was chunked up, one down...
Jonathan OK, but more...
Odin Their chunk sizes?
Jonathan right...
alchemist two different views of thought
Jonathan Chunk down in your answer... WHY weren't they in Rapport apart from the two views...?
Beau-Hunk can't help it if my chunk is bigger than most
Jonathan Its not so much the difference... but... One of you is BOUND to get this...
Melinda hehe
ClintPunk Because one's ass was on the line, and the other had the power position.
Jonathan True... and thats a GOOD answer, but I'm looking for something different. Specifically its not the diff that makes the diff
ClintPunk One is procedural
Jonathan but in terms of how each one has an outcome,
Mork One was looking for what was working..one was sorting for what wasn't?
ClintPunk the other is bottom line oriented.
ELMO i /we conflict?
ClintPunk Results vs. How to get there?
Beau-Hunk One had to REGULARLY deal with those small chunks, for the other, those "large" chunks WERE his small chunks... he had a different view.
Jonathan and NONE of that outcome... (Yes, Mork's closer) included making sure the other person got a piece of their outcome...! Its all about OUTCOMES.
Cardio one's primary thought was the outcome, the others primary thought was the process
ClintPunk sounds like what I was trying to say
Jonathan Its about recognizing other people's needs and FEEDING information to the other person in the way that they understand it.
StageHyp Kewl
Jonathan ;) Make sense?
ClintPunk, glen_ster, ELMO yes
Jonathan This is basic stuff but its often left out of specific discussions of meta-programs and other tools.
ClintPunk Dovetailing outcomes?
Jonathan I mean, whats the point unless we KNOW BEFORE YOU START what the point of paying such close attention is!
ELMO zactly
ClintPunk yup, zactly
Jonathan Its all about gathering CONCRETE (as close to) OBJECTIVE (as possible) INFORMATION.
ELMO know not only what you want, but what they want..
StageHyp It's about comminucating like they listen?
Jonathan Once you have it, you can make better decisions about how to proceed. So. With chunk size.
ClintPunk How specifically would one do that?
Jonathan And with other things. People FEED INFORMATION TO YOU IN THE WAY THEY WANT IT FED BACK TO THEM! Make sense?
Jonathan If someone's chunking UP, you should chunk UP to make better sense to them!
vk7, Cardio, Beau-Hunk, eyepatch, Cirrus y
Jonathan Versa-Vice with DOWN.
Melinda what if they blow chunks?
ELMO and use some of their content
Wolfadom ewww
Jonathan But there are exceptions. And that leads into the next Meta-Program. And I never met a Program without bugs. Like this one bugs me. Because I don't like being bugged by what should be the same but seems different.
Cirrus you determine that a person wnats/needs (chunk wise) by what they give you...
vk7 The chunking meta-program, is it most visible or most useful for rapport?
Jonathan Or, as though whats different causes the opposite responses......
ELMO as well as the many other modalities in their programs..
kamilian that language bugs me
Jonathan and how that doesn't make sense at alll, did it, because that's how MISMATCHERS understand reality. They like to mismatch. Ever meet someone who had to argue with everything you said?
ELMO we don't necessarily...LOL
Jonathan That was their way of RELATING to you.
StageHyp Oh yeah... Who hasn't met a mismatcher?
Jonathan You might have gone thru the roof feeling berated or argued to death, but somehow, they thought it was cool to challenge everything, didn't they? And when the friendship or affair ended, it was a bit of a shock, eh? Like, where did that come out of the blue? ;)
ELMO we don't want to not match... we just prefer not to..
Beau-Hunk, ELMO y
Jonathan yep. Anyway. So. Mismatchers. Or not. The brain has an interesting thing going on with how people sort for sameness vs difference, does it not? I mean, WE RECOGNIZE and feel comfortable by what's the SAME. We LEARN by what's different.
ELMO thar he blows!
Beau-Hunk But we don't want to just feed back argumentative behavior...
Jonathan So what is the implication there?
Melinda ...chunks
Jonathan Right, Beau... So lets get some comments out on this before I go on...
alchemist learn their model?
ClintPunk We should mismatch them!
Jonathan mm hmmm.... though it can be an annoying process to go thru...
ClintPunk Mismatch their mismatching.
Jonathan Clint -- right, if that feeds into your outcome.
Beau-Hunk I wouldn't feed back that kind of behavior because it would DECREASE the amount of communication ...seems to me anyway.
Jonathan RIGHT, Beau!
Mork Or point out that mismatching has it's place..but can also cause a person to lose out!
ClintPunk But then you gradually match back.
Jonathan All this depends on WHAT YOU WANT TO GET OUT OF THE COMMUNICATION!
vk7 first pacing then leading and gradually decrease mismatching
Jonathan If you want to get closer to that person -- with flirting in mind
ELMO use mismatching as the direction of your comments...use negatives in your descriptions.
Jonathan you may have to mismatch, in order to get her to MATCH... a little. The likely response, tho, once you notice them turning in your direction again, is to switch back to matching, and its the surest way to get her to mismatch again! So stick with mismatching but be FLEXIBLE! Watch for the responses!
ClintPunk Sounds like a royal pain in the ass!
Jonathan You may know when to change directions. YES IT IS A ROYAL PAIN IN THE ASS, but sometimes you may think it's worth it.
Mork Overall, I can see the point..but on a smaller level, I have a few disagreements.
ClintPunk True ;)
ELMO Moving away from, versus moving towards.. is it a common trait of mismatchers?
Beau-Hunk Kind of like cockroach racing. Ya gotta stand in front of the little bugger to get him to go the opposite direction.
Jonathan OK Mork, wanna chunk down for a moment?
Mork And on the one hand, I don't want to have a conflict with what is being said, but I also want to move toward a better understanding of the material...
Jonathan yes me too! lets get it out in the open!
ClintPunk me three.
Mork ...is smiling at the teasing he is doing!
ELMO ...is lurking and dissecting ...
ClintPunk ...is anxiously awaiting...
Jonathan I've got the next point ready to go, unless Mork is typing...
Mork Just demonstrating some languaging reflecting metaprogram distinctions....
Melinda I don't get this
Jonathan Ah-hah. OK. Specifically, Mork was mismatching the discussion. Makes sense. And it DOES pattern interrupt me -- when I'm making an effort to match the direction of the group. or more applicably... LEAD it. ;)
ClintPunk So we should mismatch Mork?
Jonathan Now. Yes, mismatchers are annoying for matchers to try and get close to.
Mork NO WE AREN'T!
StageHyp Well, Mork is not a mismatcher, unless he wants to be!
Jonathan There are one or two of you out there that KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT... wrt relationships you've been in... and you know who I mean, don't you? or not? OK! Moving on.
ClintPunk True! they are, arent they?
ClintPunk Im one!
StageHyp Like now.
Riker1 yes, please.
Mork I hate mismatchers! ;) Is it a truism that mismatchers would rather move away from than toward an outcome?
kamilian lol
Jonathan Mismatching can be a real roadblock to intimacy. I'll leave it at that for those who want longer term things. OK.
alchemist so when someone mismatches you try harder to gain rapport??
Mork and can the three coin test be relied upon? Three coins... nickel, penny, quarter...
alchemist and you can use them trying harder as a leverage?
Jonathan Yes, and I was going RIGHT INTO THAT ONE NEXT! lol AWAY FROM vs. TOWARDS! rotfl Mork is hopping around in front of the discussion. Motivations. Beau-Hunk, you've been thinking about moving soon, right? What would it get you?
Beau-Hunk Just a new experience, something I've never seen before. Lived too long in one place!
Jonathan Ah.... A towards motivation. ClintPunk, what do you get by finding someone new? Yes I'm targeting ;)
ClintPunk Fun, Interesting experiences.
StageHyp ?
Jonathan OK, more towards.
ClintPunk yep
Jonathan Equalizer & Cirrus, what do you get by being on IRC while at work?
alchemist fulfulling fantisies or the hope of
Melinda good sex? fired?
Jonathan Cirrus & Equalizer, you guys there? Melinda, always...
StageHyp Melinda beat me to it...
Mork ...sure, i got some right here...
Beau-Hunk now? OK.
Jonathan Thats a MAJOR TOWARDS ;)
Equalizer I just got here
Jonathan OK. Equalizer & Cirrus, what do you get by being on IRC while at work?
Equalizer an @ by my name
StageHyp Equalizer & Cirrus plead the fifth!
Riker1 That would be great. I would drive up for that one!
Jonathan No really. an honest unconscious answer.
Riker1 sorry :(
alchemist escape
Jonathan Whats it do for you? (let him answer guyz) Equalizer? You're at the mic...
Equalizer It's easier than disconnecting from the server and having someone take my nickname
Jonathan So you do it to avoid losing the nick? Is that an accurate rep?
Mork sorry to interrupt, but is it POSSIBLE to intentionally give an unconscious answer? I think not..
Jonathan ;) point taken, but I love the phrase ;) lol
Mork it is a goal...
Jonathan yes it is a worthwhile outcome, that I have yet to provide someone effectively! ;)
Mork LOL
Beau-Hunk I heard two "unconscious" answers that corroborate each other
Jonathan OK. So Todd has an away from. Lets get back to the flow here... flowing into the next point which is to - understand more clearly - just how people can begin to recognize what it is that drives people to know when they state the REASON or MOTIVATION for an action... like, a reason to BE INTIMATE WITH YOU, for example... You can listen closely to the REASON they give... pay attention visually to how their body changes posture or shifts or not while they talk with you... and listen more specifically than you have already -- to whether they describe the cause or motivation to be one of something that drives them forward TOWARDS a goal
Mork Excellent distinction, Jon!
Jonathan like... Betty says, "in order to decide if I were ready to be more intimate with a guy, I have to know ...
(answer 1) If they're NOT SOMEONE I couldn't TRUST
(answer 2) If they're someone I could trust
(answer 3) If that's MR RIGHT FOR ME
(answer 4) If I'm really sure he wouldn't turn out to be an Axe Murderer....
is this making dollars and sense yet?
eyepatch (Answer 1) is confusing...
Jonathan The reason this is important is to recognize whether they sort by AVOIDANCE or BY TOWARDS... And know that through NLP study we know that what REALLY DRIVES PEOPLE FORWARD WITHOUT HESITATION -- What we call a Propulsion System... is a combination of a POWERFUL Away-From Motivation, with a POWERFUL TOWARDS Motivation... Once you set up both (or verify that they're both there), the person has VERY LITTLE internal defense for moving forward.
Trefalgar .... um.. let's see... i work so i can buy food and shelter,,... or i work so i don't get cold and starve...
ClintPunk ...is becoming more intrigued now...
Jonathan And makes it POSSIBLE TO MOVEFORWARD WITH ALL DUE SPEED ON THE WAY TO WORK!
Trefalgar ... so i don't get a ticket...
Jonathan As you reflect on some of these new twists, and new ideas and learnings and distinctions... because undoubtedly we have a varied crowd in here -- all professional... all intelligent... with varying degrees... of knowledge with NLP ;)
Trefalgar & we help each other....
ClintPunk ...is wondering how to apply this to flirting...
Jonathan & as you think about how this might improve your approach to flirtation... and use situations that in your past.... didn't go as well as they could have.... incredible things could begin to pull together in your mind as you learn to utilize these awarenesses in such a way that can cause you to sleep, dream, & integrate specifically all the things which, when you FIND YOURSELF in future situations with an opportunity to flirt with someone, & begin to do the flirtation dance, get her into conversation... begin to LISTEN not so much to the specifics -- while you find a way to catalog those for later reference -- & listen for the WORDS they're using with you -- which describe WHAT they sort for! Are they AWAY-FROM motivators? Are they TOwards? Are they a little of both? Or does it change from situation to situation (likely)... or topic 2 topic; & are they mismatchers or are they matchers?
eyepatch words only/ pay no attention to context?
Jonathan &... Context plays a role too. But try listening ONLY for these things for a little bit, & learn what you can learn from that. Then, perhaps in future situations you'll have more than just one tool, or more than just a few tools to play with. You might recognize that you have MANY tools to work with...
Trefalgar & when you reach the conclusion that all these behaviours are a part of you, and they operate subconciously, you will have all the unconcsious answers you need.
Jonathan YES TREF, well put.... OK Next point. Propulsion Systems. Combination of AWAY from, and TOWARDS, right? Any questions yet? Y/N lemme know if you're WITH ME
Trefalgar, ClintPunk, Cirrus, StageHyp, Trefalgar, eyepatch, Equalizer, Beau-Hunk, glen_ster y
ClintPunk But Im wondering how specifically to apply it for flirting.
Jonathan While agreement is coming thru, I wanna announce that the April Prac program is beefing up beyond whats on the website... I'm adding a co-trainer by the name of Phoenix Morgan. He's been training with Richard for 4 years or so. Awesome with the skills (NLP & DHE). OK... next point! So we know about Prop systems and what that does for people. So if you want to determine an outcome for someone and influence their movement towards that outcome (leading)
StageHyp What's the relationship between Towards/Away and Pleasure/Pain? Are they always linked obviously?
Jonathan apart from all the Rapport that MUST BE THERE for this to work...
Trefalgar ... the brain is a donkey.. it responds to the threat of the whip, or reaching for the carrot on a stick..
Jonathan That's not what I was referring to, StageHyp, but its a good question, so I'll come back to that! You can identify what PART of the Propulsion System is MISSING, and PROVIDE the missing element! Make sense to EVERYONE?
Trefalgar aha...
Jonathan Simple concept, not always so easy to implement, wasn't it!
ClintPunk You mean move towards part or away part, right?
Jonathan YES.
Beau-Hunk Seems so.
ClintPunk If you try to motivate someone with a stick, it could backfire.
Riker1 yes, makes sense, continue.
Jonathan Alright, a good example for you flirting wizards there: If you want to become more intimate with a woman (I figured that would perk you up)
Cardio, Riker1 y
Jonathan If she says she wants to make sure you aren't going to 'Z' or aren't going to turn out to 'BE Z' (whatever Z represents)
Beau-Hunk Oh, you wouldn't want somebody who's Z.
Jonathan You can run a pattern that helps her make sure you're not (PACE THE AWAY-FROM), and, also provide the part thats missing (PROVIDE THE TOWARDS)
Beau-Hunk Wouldn't you much rather have (opposite of Z)?
Jonathan You might elicit her values in order to get the trance words to use in setting up the towards, if you'll feel so inclined... More detail Beau
ClintPunk How do you pace the away from?
Trefalgar pay attention to predicates,
Beau-Hunk That's shorthand. Lots of pointing & anchoring if you can do it. Or bonus if she's given you the opposite. Use her words.
Jonathan ClintPunk, HOW would YOU pace the away-from? Specifically using that example (describe Z). I mean, use the letter Z. Don't give me an example of Z.
ClintPunk By telling her I'm not that.. Z
Jonathan Telling her I'm not that? Conscious description? Really?
ClintPunk Seems rather obvious - too blatant. How do you do it covertly?
Jonathan Or... what else could you do more effectively that the other bros would LOVE to learn from you about?
Jonathan Kewl - Thats what I wanna hear!
ClintPunk hmm... are we getting personal here?
Jonathan No, I mean at a process level.
Beau-Hunk Jonathan: Yeah, give her more detail in your description of Z and see how she reacts.
ClintPunk but wont she get annoyed?
Beau-Hunk Point away from yourself, like to your hand while you describe it.
Jonathan Thats a good idea -- elicit more information if you're not sure how to proceed in pacing the awayfrom.
ClintPunk If someone tried that on me, I would get pissed.
Beau-Hunk Get her nodding her head. "Yeah that's it!"
Jonathan Which, ClintPunk?
Jonathan oh the conscious saying "I'm not that..."
ClintPunk If someone tried to motivate me with pain..
Beau-Hunk Then throw out a quick summary of what you THINK she might be motivated towards, and watch her reaction.
ClintPunk Or said they arent that... how would I know? for sure?
Beau-Hunk If she agrees, run with it.
ClintPunk hmm...
Jonathan Right. You guys are ALL right. The awayfrom is Supposed to be an uncomfortable thing. Thats why you have to tread VERY carefully when doing this in a DISASSOCIATED WAY. By using language like "Can you see yourself .." which forces them to disassociate, right...?
ClintPunk I think mismatchers are more interesting than moving away froms. (right)
Jonathan Some of you may know I abhor using Pain in NLP,
ClintPunk, StageHyp y
Jonathan but its important to know how discomfort is used as an awayfrom.
ClintPunk ...is reflecting...
Beau-Hunk Just the suggestion of that painful thing should be enough to get her moving in the right direction?
Jonathan If you set it up as part of something you ALREADY know that she actually already dislikes, then you're just amplifying the negative implications. Make sense? Go for what WORKS, AMPLIFY it, find out what doesn't work, AMPLIFY THAT, and the motion towards something better is almost automatic. It can become almost IRRESISTABLE
Beau-Hunk Jonathan: Please give an example of "can you see yourself..."
ClintPunk Isnt that risky? Amping negative states, I mean..
Jonathan Yes. I'm talking about amping things that are already away-froms, after the TOWARDS has already been set up.
StageHyp The "Final Straw" pattern...
ClintPunk I see.. So you give them a TOWARDS first, and THEN an AWAY!
Jonathan You create the target, the GOAL... and before suggesting they begin to move TO the goal, you say, look back at that away-from... and THEN you AMP up the AWAY like a kick in the pants! OUCH!!!!! KnowwhatImean?
StageHyp Toward First, the Away kick's 'em in the ass to get moving!
ClintPunk Kewl.. THAT is Kewl...
Cardio very good
Jonathan YES
Beau-Hunk va va va VOOM!
ClintPunk reflects some more... So then with flirting...
Jonathan Just like I want you to recognize that with the integration of just these skills... may cause you to GO OUT THERE and open up the channels to pay more attention to all these things...
ClintPunk I might say.. I dont know just how much fun we are going to have when we go out.. But doesnt it suck when you're home alone with nothing to do?
Jonathan and when you do, and recognize all the things people tell you that you weren't paying attention to before but now can amplify and begin to UTILIZE... more and more effectively, now I want you to pay attention to what its like when you're home alone with nothing to do, and it just gets even more annoying when you know you can take off and DO SOMETHING to have a blast.
ClintPunk it sucks. yea, but what?
Jonathan But when you know its late, and sleep holds wonderful and active dreams.... sometimes it can be awesome to just... remain home.
ClintPunk How do you create the TOWARDS?
Jonathan TOWARDS? I bet you'd like to enjoy more sex, wouldn't you? Bigtime, right?
ClintPunk hmmm... What if you dont have a TOWARDS? (Yea I would!) How do you create that to be compelling.. how do you make them think of it as being something that is really compelling...
Jonathan "Make them???" Or "Influence them?" (Difference between control {baad} and influence {better} ) Anyway, to influence them, you could ELICIT their meta-program, find out their strategies, and INSTALL with patterns, and process language.
Beau-Hunk One question Jonathan:
ClintPunk ...reflects and says inside 'Hmm....' must be a long one...
Jonathan yes? (before I wrap up) ;)
Beau-Hunk The object of this conversation with the prospective partner, is it to get a CONSCIOUS desire to go out with you (knowing the dreadful alternative), or to install an UNCONSCIOUS urge toward you??
Jonathan YES. Next question? ;) lol
Beau-Hunk Like, at what point are you just giving her REASONS to go out with you???
ClintPunk 'Dreadful alternative?"
Jonathan NEVER. Just talk. Use language patterns. LISTEN.
StageHyp You mean LIST them? Like a shopping list? never, Beau!
Jonathan Act with congruity, describe wonderful things, and structure opportunities for her to RECOGNIZE all the values she holds so dearly for herself... RIGHT in this person...
Beau-Hunk So you're not actually changing her state, but giving her a new set of beliefs??
Jonathan I'm doing ALL that, but for the purposes of learning these skills separately, I'm creating a motivational state that is impossible to resist.
Cardio early in the seminar you mentioned to quiet your internal chatter....this is a several thousand year old problem...how do you quiet your internal chatter?
Jonathan You find that voice of deep sexy power and you have it say "SHUT THE HECK UP." It works.
Cardio :-)
ClintPunk ...is finding himself becoming increasingly intrigued...
Jonathan I credit Bandler for leading me to recognition on that mechanism.
ClintPunk It almost seems like a paradigm shift..
Beau-Hunk cpr: Try giving the voices your best tonality. What a difference!
Jonathan What specifically?
ClintPunk You are chunking up quite a bit. The concept is propulsion; the specifics are patterns. languaging, etc..
Jonathan OK, so as I wrap up here, I want to THANK you all for coming, and before you take off.... and use these skills, possibly tonight, maybe tomorrow or later in the weekend... I'd love to have you guys come down for an event -- we'd all party in Ybor City on nights off!
ClintPunk ...is clapping with a standing ovation for Jonathan! You deserve a standing ovation!
Cardio yay!
cpr thank you for the seminar
Beau-Hunk Excellent seminar Jonathan! Thanks!
ClintPunk Thanks Jonathan!
glen_ster thanks for your insight Jonathan!!!!!!
Jonathan My pleasure guys.
Equalizer Thanks again Jonathan
Jonathan I REALLY love teaching this stuff and I genuinely hope you get some use out of the knowledge and the skills... that you'll just build upon... ;) See you all soon! (I'll stay for questions/chat for a little while) but gimme a 5 minute break. Away for 5.
IRC CHAT OVER!

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