Chat Log: NLP Overview
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IRC Chat Log, June 14, 1998
| Jonathan | Well, again, I'm pleased you all came by tonight -- this chat is in response to several requests I received rather suddenly all together -- asking for more of an overview chat.... something that used less jargon, something that provided higher-level ideas for people who may be new to all this NLP stuff! And I thought, What a Great Idea! Because there's ALL kinds of chat topic transcripts on the website, including major NLP models of communication, particular advanced skills, some basic skills, and some of the basic chats upon re-reading them recently didn't seem all that basic in terms of the rapidity with which we covered that material. So I can easily see how Some of that material might have been breezed through. So we're going to stay VERY high-level tonight if we can... and only drill-down as we need to -- to clarify a given issue. Does that sound useful to everyone? (y/n) And as you're answering, why not take a moment to write down on a pad, some of your OWN high-level NLP questions. There will be time to get them addressed later on!
| bracken, pforkes, Gorlock | y
| Jonathan | As you're writing some questions you have.... make sure to prioritize them because I'm not sure we'll get to all of everyone's questions. But we'll ask & explore some of your best questions. So when I chunk waaaay up... categorize and prioritize my own wishes and desires with NLP... my own skills and goals/outcomes.... get as high-level as I can possibly be... the intention or insight which comes to mind is... How can I be a better Person? And what does that entail for me? What can I do to improve my situation in life and the situations of my family, my friends, my clients, etc...? How can I piece-by-piece improve all of my behavior... optimize my skills... be a more dynamic individual with other people... learn how to communicate more effectively and influence more responsibly, etc. ALL these things come to mind. How can I be a better parent? How can I enjoy my life more, experience more pleasure, be more amazed by the wonderful things in life... How do I learn to never again victimize myself? How do I learn to be more responsible, easily, naturally, comfortably, and with a sense of unbridled fulfillment? These are the things that come to mind for me. These are the questions which I explore as I pursue NLP and other related interests. I find that NLP offers me tools for pursuing answers to these questions... a wider variety of more effective tools than any other methodology or technology than I have ever encountered before. And I may yet find something better and more effective. Who knows... by USING NLP to improve upon itself, I may even be involved in finding something better and more effective, I don't know. I don't know whats going to come of that, but I do know that NLP offers people something akin to a "Human Brain's Owner's Manual." And a better-written one than anything else I've found. So we can get lost in the language patterns, or the jargon definitions... or in the techniques... or the skills... etc. And we'd experience a lot of skills development there. But if it doesn't fit into an overall framework of the pursuit of enlightenment and personal empowerment... then what's it ALL really for? I wonder. See, to me, it all goes to intent. It all boils down to "what is my outcome?" What *ARE* my outcomes? Before the chat began, one of our group here shared with us comments of having attended Tony Robbins' "Date With Destiny." And that he learned something about having explored his PRIMARY QUESTION. Well, without making anyone wrong -- because *we're ALL right*.... I do think my primary question varies from context to context and the only reason I think this is true.... is that our brains get motivated through the process NLP calls generalization. We naturally and usually inappropriately categorize things in our world around us. I think we're extraordinarily complex organisms... and most people get motivated and get clear when they can organize their thoughts into tight categories. Well... such categories exist, we create them... and behaviors are contextually appropriate and inappropriate. They vary a lot. What is a "stuck" state in one context may be the perfect thinking state for another context. "Murder" in one context may be "Self-Defense" in another context. "Being too nice" in one context might be... selfless and giving in another. Being REALLY creative in one context may be perfectly appropriate but in certain heirarchies... considered... uppity or disrespectful. I believe most people's stress comes from when the world doesn't do what you want it to. When you behave in a way that -- in that particular context -- may not be ideal. So. As complex organisms... in a complex world... we need to try to make sense of it all. Now. You can make the best of this in two ways: | (1) You can keep chunking up & up & up until all the problems disappear and it all boils down to ONE wonderful drive or issue or pursuit. Thats taking ADVANTAGE of the brain's natural tendency to want to simplify and categorize. (2) You can become more relaxed KNOWING that things aren't as simple as we'd like them to be, and allow our laughter connected with that to drive us forward into doing better than we thought we could, until we found out that we really can push forward without needing to simplify things! Does this make sense (y/n)? pforkes | y
| Jonathan | Some of Tony's motivational force comes from the process of steadily chunking UP with his seminar participants. He USES NLP skills to make use of those natural brain processes, even if they aren't "truth..." to help us drive ourselves forward. Its a GOOD way. It isn't the only way.
| symbol | y
| Jonathan | Though what he offers is very useful, I like having more options! So. Let my fingers relax for a moment... and I want to open up the chat for a little bit to comments about the above, if you even have any yet! NLP for me is about pursuing answers to all of the above! So think about it. What kinds of thoughts, comments, or questions did any of the above spark... in you?
| Gorlock | Let me try this..is my primary question changing from time to time as I chunk up and down under different circumstances and I interpret that as a lack of focus on high level outcomes?
| symbol | You started out by saying "What *ARE* my outcomes?" Thats very true for me.
| finter | Jon - can u explain what chunking up means?
| Jonathan | Yes finter -- chunking UP is the process of generalizing more & more & more
| bracken | There's more information around in most situations than you can readily deal with - having an outcome you want to reach is a filter on which bits to attend to
| Jonathan | Angel Hair with Red Marinara Sauce (CHUNKS UP TO:) pasta with red sauce (CHUNKS UP TO:) Italian Food (CHUNKS UP TO:) Food (CHUNKS UP TO:) Human Sustainance
| piizaan | What if you chunk up too high? Like saying "I want to be succesfull", well what does that actually mean to me?
| Jonathan | Piizaan -- depends on the person -- some people like the "big picture" approach to everything.... some people like to drill down into the details in order to move forward....
| symbol | I found it very useful to ask myself : " What is my intention to have THESE outcomes?"
| Jonathan | Yes, symbol, I like that description...
| finter | I see, so it all chunks up to happiness
| Jonathan | Well, finter, you're on the right path there ;) and Tony Robbins knows this.... Whenever you chunk up... USUALLY, the problems disappear one by one. The smaller chunk you deal with, the more problems naturally arise.
| piizaan | Too many things that you are worrying about?
| finter | But surely you must tackle all the little chunks to acheive the finite goal
| Jonathan | When people are lost in the problems they face... they haven't been able to SEE the forest for the trees. Tony chunks people up to 40,000' in the air... and it ALL looks good from there.... ;) Yes, finter... you must tackle the little stuff to create your outcome. But you won't be motivated to get through them quickly and with pleasure if you aren't directed towards what you KNOW is right there and tangible... touchable... within reach...
| Gorlock | If you have to tackle all the little chunks, you may never deal with the big chunks...it's a numbers thing.
| finter | 40,000 feet in the air scares the stuffing out of me, It doesn't make me happy
| Jonathan | Finter, what DOES make you happy? (besides, 40,000 feet up is a metaphor... think top-of-the-mountain)
| finter | Drinking Smoking and laughing, I'm ashamed to admit... and performing music to people, that is the biggest rush
| Jonathan | So... if you were alone in a room, by yourself, drinking, smoking, & laughing... that would make you happy???
| finter | Well its better if there is a room of people, but taking away the rest of the people, I am almost complete until the next day, then i feel awful
| Jonathan | Laughing, Smoking & Drinking by yourself is almost all of what you're after? OK.
| finter | No, not at all, its a crutch
| Jonathan | Lets move this in another direction, thank you..... but before I do.... I'd like to say that PAIN and difficulty in people's lives... is a FUNCTION of... or a RESULT of... an impoverished view of the world and of your own possibilities. People create crutches or habits out of the most fun things in their lives -- without knowing how MUCH more satisfying other things can be.
| Gorlock | Jon could you explain impoverished as you used it there?
| Jonathan | Yes, Gorlock, I will explain impoverished, but in a little bit (be patient). So using things like the Meta-Model... you can find out what people's models of the world really are like. You can use NLP models of communication ... (like the Meta Model)... to listen to the words people use (or listen to the words YOU use).... and hear the SURFACE STRUCTURE of their communication (surface structure is "what you hear.") And you can learn from the surface structure... what people's INTERNAL understanding of reality is all about. This is about using the surface structure to build a MODEL of their internal "DEEP STRUCTURE" of experience. Following me here? Surface structure's WHAT YOU HEAR, Deep Structure is WHAT YOU DON'T HEAR! Hear, here! ;)
| follie | I must be slow...
| Jonathan | Follie, go ahead and tell me what isn't clear about the above, I want it to be clear!
| follie | The difference between surface and deep structure, I think. Maybe some different words?
| Jonathan | OK. How many people have heard the NLP statement "The Map is Not The Territory?" What this basically means is... "reality" is some intangible middle-zone that we can never truly know. Reality is the TERRITORY. And inside our minds, we create little maps of the world... through which we operate... and which get build through our sensory systems (using visual or auditory info, for example) Now. Our internal MAPS... are not the same thing as the TERRITORY. Because... when creating those maps... we DELETE, DISTORT, and GENERALIZE all that information coming in through our senses!
| follie | Are you saying that "you can't judge a book by its cover"?
| Jonathan | Similar, follie, but probably not the same. We create... "IMPOVERISHED" views of the world, automatically, because we never have ALL the information needed to create a MAP that exactly matches reality. Thats what I mean by impoverished.
| follie | We see what we focus on, which may not be what's really happening?
| Jonathan | We never, ever EVER have as much information as we COULD have, if we were really perceiving & understanding "reality." Sure, Follie. Now. this isn't tragic.... its just.. how our brains operate. Its not a BAD thing. THe only bad thing would be to not understand these processes and how they happen, and then... never make USE of these processes. In short... NLP is how to RUN YOUR OWN BRAIN BETTER! Does this make sense? And it starts by accepting how your brain does certain things. Now. We have these maps that aren't the same thing as reality. Which CAUSES us, to rely on our "assumptions or beliefs" about ourselves and other people quite a lot. And a belief is a curious thing... we can have empowering beleifs... and we can have limiting beliefs. And most people don't know... that the difference is very small. It only takes a choice... it doesn't take years of experience... or lots of pain... to decide to have more empowering beliefs. NLP teaches us skills for SHAPING POWERFUL beliefs. And we then act on those beliefs in the world. By doing so... we create a better life for ourselves and for those around us. | follie | Thanks, jonathan, i'm with you now, I think
| Jonathan | And I hear CLUES... using NLP techniques... for determining how you are limiting yourself! By looking & listening for particular things... which may be in your deep structure... I can find out where your OWN limiting beliefs are preventing you from being more self-empowered.... from experiencing more pleasure... and from, lets say, having better relationships or, earning more money. NLP is not only about learning to run YOUR own brain better..... its also about learning how to help OTHER people run their own brains better.... or... about you learning how other people run their own brains.. so that you can communicate with them more effectively. Or so that you can learn from them more efficiently. | Jonathan | Everyone throw your questions out to the channel now, And we'll get to them 1 by 1. Each person send only 1, for the moment... please!
| Guest8992 | Let's talk about spatial anchoring versus submodalities anchoring..
| finter | I have a question about people language. NLP describes how you can tell someones primary modal by using peoples speach pattern, where i live I have noticed every one uses the term "I see" its a coloquialism, but how can u distinguish between "sayings" and real expression?
| Jonathan | Why would you want to, finter? I mean, don't you think that if they were made uncomfortable by the unconscious implication of the colloquialism, that they wouldn't use it?
| finter | We have a lot of pretty scenary here could that be the cause?
| Jonathan | Might be.
| finter | I don't understand you.
| Jonathan | What I'm saying is... People wouldn't use the term "I see" if their unconscious mind wanted to "hear," not "see."
| finter | OK
| Jonathan | If they use "I see" then chances are they're happy touching on a visual mode there long enough to say "I see" if not longer... ;) Touching on a visual mode ;)
| Ruralguy | Perhaps this question is out of place, but how does one change one's limiting beliefs to powerful ones?
| Jonathan | Ruralguy... its a good question, and there are a lot of ways. I'll keep my answer highlevel. | (1) Have you read my chatlog on Belief Systems yet? (2) Have you read Time for a Change? Ruralguy | I probably did, but don't remember it right now. Yes.
| Jonathan | Those two sources will give you a lot of information on changing beliefs.
| MarcM | Plus the book "Beliefs" :) plus, the other one by Dilts which is the same thing :)
| Jonathan | And I mean a LOT of information. In (2) above... look for the section on the belief change matrix. Also "Changing Belief Systems with NLP." Dilts. OK.
| Ruralguy | Thank you.
| Jonathan | So...... other high-level questions?
| finter | What is high level?
| Jonathan | Here's what I believe is high-level enough for this chat: "Can NLP be used to help X?" "Can NLP improve Y?" "Can I learn NLP for Z?"
| MarcM | One of the problems I've always had with beliefs, is, well... you believe them for a reason. i.e. You've got some evidence to support them.
| symbol | Another question : how do I develop the ability to see/notice structures?
| Jonathan | GREAT QUESTION, symbol... The Meta-Model is a collection of language patterns under the groupings... Deletion, Generalization, and Distortion. And by learning the patterns that fit under those categories.... and learning how they sound... what the clues are for them... you'll start to hear these patterns in language ALL around you. In everyone's speech. This is not eclectic material. Everyone uses these patterns, and so few people are paying attention to the semantic implications of those patterns! So just by learning the patterns from a book, or booklet, or the web... and by getting experience listening for the patterns, you would automatically begin to hear them in the language people use around you, all day long. It would amaze you to know how much information people are giving away without knowing about it. I have an exercise workbook I just finished up on the Meta Model patterns, actually.
| finter | Can NLP be used to help someone with agrophobia?
| Jonathan | Agoraphobia?
| finter | Yes, open spaces.
| symbol | Sometimes my attention seems to be more on the inside instead of the outside
| Jonathan | Yes, Symbol... I would imagine you mind-read a lot... you have a strong set of internal voices... it tends to get in the way of your best results, does it not?
| symbol | Yes. Yes, it sometimes does
| Jonathan | Yep, NLP does help with that, but typically that takes some time to gain more flexibility about internal/external direction.... trainings help more than books do with that.
| symbol | Going to a 3rd position (or diss.) helps
| Jonathan | NLP can help people make some very profound changes, its certainly true. You can learn a lot from books & tapes. But live in-person training makes SO much difference in terms of the behavioral installation of these skills.
| Grendal | | Jonathan | Thats kind of the reason for my upcoming fall seminar series. I recognize a couple of names of people here who are planning on attending. 3 days of concrete skills development. So you get a vivid taste of what it can do for you. Its very difficult for many people to commit to an NLP Practitioner training when they don't know what the concrete results would be for themselves... I understand that!
| finter | Jon - have you ever thought about a seminar in the uk?
| Jonathan | Finter -- I'd LOVE to do a traiing in the UK. I'm negotiating to do some work over in Europe in the Spring, so it may be a possibility.
| Jonathan | Let's take stock of where we're at. We've covered 1ST what your goals and outcomes are. We've talked about the kinds of questions you can ask yourselves regarding what areas of your life you'd like to improve, optimize, enjoy more... etc.... And we've talked about how we can understand other people so much more clearly... their internal understanding of life... their direction... and we IMPLIED -- ( but didn't address directly) how we can help ENRICH their deep structure using our knowledge of their potentially impoverished deep structure. Because we don't CURE people with NLP. We only ENRICH people's possibilitites! We ADD to the options we and they have... we take stock of our own position in relation to where we want to be going... and the position of others in relation to where they want to be going... and we can use NLP to enrich our MAPS....to have a more open set of possibilities and options...
| Jonathan | Would that be Joe Riggio arriving now? Excellent! If that's Joe Riggio, then we're in for a treat!
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