Chat Log: How Best to Learn NLP?
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IRC Chat Log, April 26, 1998
| Jonathan | OK folks thanks for showing up, joining the crowd and doing something to take your skills a little bit further towards what it is that you do not know you already do very well, some of the time! How many of you LEARN CERTAIN THINGS, REALLY WELL? (y/n)
| Questor_ | hmmm
| Stefan, Tiger-, Questor_, sigabrt | y
| Jonathan | OK cool.
| ORI`gami | y/n
| Jonathan | And I bet that at the times you'd qualify as having learning something really really well, that there were certain qualities of the experience that were present at that time! Like, maybe you felt you were really at ease, or maybe you felt like you were having fun, or maybe you learned best when you put a lot of pressure on yourself, or whatever.
| Jonathan | And it might vary from experience to experience, or not.
| ORI`gami | feels like when you are in love
| Jonathan | But the most important thing is, its either somewhat different or very different, for each of us & between each of us. Sometimes it does, ORI, that's a GREAT one! I like it! And I'll start from this point, and come back to it at the end, is that the best way to learn NLP -- from a 40,000 foot, Bird's Eye, BIG CHUNK point of view, is the way that is best for YOU. And I want you to pat yourself on the back, and admit that no one, not I, nor any other trainer around... KNOWS WHAT'S BEST FOR YOU. YOU ARE YOUR OWN BEST JUDGE! I and other trainers, from the best possible position, are no more than guides through material that you may not yet be familiar with... so as you learn more about NLP -- or any other subject -- I want you to do whatever it takes to dispel the myth that says you HAVE to do anything someone else's way. Can we start from there? What do you say? How do you feel about it? (let's get any initial questions out of the way). OK! Well, I guess without any questions, I'll just move forward...
| Tranzpupy | move forward.
| Jonathan | There are SO many things you can do to learn NLP!
| Jonathan | The choices are obvious: | (1) Trainings (2) Videotapes (3) Audio Tapes (4) Books/Magazines/Websites & Articles (5) Chat rooms, Mailing Lists, USENET Newsgroups (6) PERSONAL EXPLORATION (7) Private study, memorization, etc Tranzpupy | I want it ALL
| Jonathan | and on & on. And there's the most room for growth and experimentation in (1), (6) & (7) -- in my opinion. So let's go through each of them in a slightly different order and discuss our experiences with each of them! Does this seem like a reasonable way to go forward (y/n)? The reason for asking is because this chat is about discussing the best ways to learn effective use of NLP in our lives. And each of our experiences have been/ may be different, so all these differences are where the richness of variety leads to each of our greater growth!
| Tranzpupy | y
| Grendal | right... I perfer a combo ;)
| Jonathan | Well, a combo is definitely the ideal choice, Grendal! But lets deal with each one separately for the moment. Part of NLP is about modeling things that work, taking the process apart into specifics that work, then re-assembling them, so to speak, so that we know they'll work when we stop thinking about how we've changed our methods! OK! So.... Lets talk about books.
| Grendal | otay ;)
| Jonathan | You can CERTAINLY learn passively from books, Seminar transcripts, articles, magazines, etc., about OTHER people's ideas of how NLP is supposed to work, and about tools that have worked for other people, but that's passive learning, isn't it?
| Grendal | yep, it's a great way to get others thought..and see how they work...then make them work for you..
| Jonathan | And Most people read silently, and in a specific position, seated or laying down, so they often lock in those learnings into certain positions... Sure. But the moment you take the learning out into a specific situation and USE it, playing with it to see how it works... is the moment you're not learning from books anymore, right?
| Grendal | Nope..you took an idea from the book..and ran with it..
| Jonathan | So, from Books, do you EVER get experiential knowledge? In my opinion, the answer is NO, but you do get a representation of other people's experiential knowledge!
| Grendal | I agree ;)
| Jonathan | And it may or may not fit with your map. But there's something else. Most people read silently, which uses how much of your body & how many internal rep systems (leaving out how many rep systems are hit with the languaging). We know that people learn better when they use more of their body, and when MORE representational systems are involved. It links things in more, integrates them more!
| Tranzpupy | I like your idea of reading out loud
| Grendal | hrm...Intresting and very intriguing. ;)
| Jonathan | I don't read the newspaper or magazines out loud of course, but NLP Transcript-type books -- I do! Like: | Trance-formations Reframing (old material) Using Your Brain...For A Change Frogs Into Princes Tranzpupy | hmmph! Frogs into PrinCESSES, please
| somnus | hmm
| Jonathan | You just keep that hallucination going, Tranzpupy, feel freeeeee! OK, so, moving on -- How MANY of you enjoy learning from books? I do, I'll be the first to say so -- but they're really a small part of my study process. I'm *really* interested in getting multiple views here... what works for you?
| Grendal | I like to get new ideas form book..and then develop them via personal research and testing...
| somnus | I like learning from books
| sigabrt | its different for different types of learning
| Jonathan | Definitely, SIG, glad you mentioned that.
| Tranzpupy | I like learning from books, and sometimes
| somnus | For experiential things, though, like sports or NLP, I need a bit more, though
| Jonathan | I'll focus mostly on NLP learning, here, though, SIG.
| Tranzpupy | I can just actualize it,
| Stefan | I think books are a good place to start, it gives you the theory. Then, to really get good at something I have to actually do it, play with it.
| sigabrt | for intelectual learning, books are fine... for using somehting in the real world, books are somewhat lacking
| Tranzpupy | and sometimes I need to see/feel it, like in a training... or chat
| somnus | what you get from books is "head knowledge"
| Jonathan | I'd agree. Books are a great reference, but they don't replace real-world PERSONAL experience. They can't give you your own experience, though they CAN lead your imagination into creating or revisiting incredible memories...
| Tranzpupy | a little head knowledge is good.
| Jonathan | Sure.
| Grendal | right ;)
| somnus | true
| Jonathan | But intellectual knowledge of NLP without effective USAGE skills is little more than folly. If you can't USE it, well, its like not showing up.
| Tranzpupy | and you USE it during a training...
| Jonathan | OK. So Books are important, we know that. A lot of NLP knowledge can be gained by reading books, but book information by itself almost NEVER translates itself into "How do I effectively use this information, NOW" without integration using other processes!!! So... lets move on to another area of learning...
| somnus | that's true
| Jonathan | WHich are GREAT because you can listen to many of them while driving, while working out... you can OPTIMIZE YOUR TIME by learning NLP as you do other things!
| somnus | the idea is good...
| Jonathan | And there ARE a lot of good tapes available. Almost TOO many to choose from!
| Stefan | I you haven't got the opportunity to learn from a teacher in person, you can learn things like intonation of embedded commands. Also, the marking out of words connects the ideas in a better way IMHO
| somnus | I don't have any NLP tapes, but audio tape learning has never worked that good for me in the past.
| Jonathan | Bandler's Personal Enhancement set (also known as the NeuroSonics tapes) is phenomenal!
| Tranzpupy | somnus:I used to not like learning from audio... then
| Jonathan | And the Persuasion Engineering tapeset is really good.
| Tranzpupy | I just put it in the background...
| Jonathan | Here are some others -- Michael Brooks' Instant Rapport tape version of his book is an excellent entry into NLP material, but is pretty basic about how it covers VAKOG strategies. OK. But the absolute best tapes on NLP.... that you can get anywhere... are the tapes that YOU YOURSELF CAN/WOULD make.... if you recorded your own voice reading NLP books to yourself!!!
| Tranzpupy | kewl
| Jonathan | And then listened to them on your own while working out or maybe walking to class or driving (for non-trance material)... Because how much of your brain/body and how many rep-systems do you then involve as you've read the book and heard your OWN voice both internally and externally? Like the idea? (y/n)?
| Tranzpupy, Grendal, somnus | y
| Tranzpupy | mmmm. is there any Bandler that's non-trance?
| Jonathan | Very little of Bandler's material is non-trancy! OK, so... if you want other tape recommendations, feel free to ask me after the chat! Moving on!
| Jonathan | Bandler has a few new videotapes out -- recorded in London -- | (1) an Evening with Richard Bandler (2 & 3) State of the Art I & II -- Bandler on NLP training. And they're AWESOME. There's a TON of old Richard Bandler videos available from various sources (I recommend you pick up whatever you can, they may not be available much longer through those sources). There's the Tony Robbins stuff, but, how far does that material really go in the training of NLP? And there are of COURSE lots of other videos available through a number of training organizations. Videos are, IMHO, better than books and better than tapes, because you get to add in your own VISUALexternal rep-system experience, with AUDITORYexternal. And you can REWIND -- whereas the people who were there at the time of the filming didn't have that luxury! What videos do people recommend -- if you have any good sets? Tranzpupy | no
| Stefan | I don't have any at all.
| Jonathan | No one else here has NLP videos they've enjoyed? I have several sets I enjoy; here are just a few examples: | (1) Dilts: Strategies of Genius. (2) Dilts: Sleight of Mouth (3) Bandler: Bandler Doing Bandler (a hypnosis weekend training) Zell | Are those videos you mentioned listed on the web somewhere?
| Jonathan | Zell -- visit the Southern Institute of NLP for some of those older videos.
| Tranzpupy | I have sleight of mouth, but haven't seen it all yet
| Jonathan | yes, it takes a bit of time to get through!!! OK -- so Videos are EXCELLENT -- but not practical always, because we can't spend our lives in front of the tube, and besides, who would want to? NLP is about experience, not, couch time! I think videos are great, though. You can set up parties with your local NLP friends, if you have any, and watch the videos together sharing what you each notice. Its a great way to learn. Which leads me into...
| Jonathan | And there are so many different kinds of trainings to choose from. You can do a practitioner training. You can do a master practitioner training. You can go to weekend trainings with a variety of people, covering a wide range of topics. You can attend a Presentation Skills training! And there are a LOT of other people who have used NLP to create trainings under different titles than NLP-related, but still used NLP to produce the results.
| Tranzpupy | Whoa. Explain that the result of USING NLP....
| Jonathan | Kevin Trudeau's Mega-Memory course and other materials -- for example -- they have informercials... which are chock full of NLP in how they market their materials, to get you to buy their products!
| Grendal | I bought that today ;) haha..funny ;)
| Jonathan | But as for trainings, well, its a caveat emptor market. And different trainings are marketed in different ways.
| Tranzpupy | here we are
| Jonathan | There's Usenet Newsgroup alt.psychology.nlp! There's the email lists NLPTALK & MINDLIST. There are other email lists as well. And then, there's here... (Editor's Sept/2001 addition: And now there's Steve Boyley's Voice Chats as well!)
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