Chat Log: NLP & Animal Training

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NLP & Animal Training
IRC Chat Log, January 24, 1999

Warming Up!
Jonathan Hi, folks! Thanks for joining in tonight for another chat. Who here has read the book "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor? (y/n)
Eloquence Yes
Tranzpupy, Venus 1/2
_Stile_, Paolo, IntriKate, Simon_UK, NLPSGI, Uranus, Tangram, NLP_D00D, FullStop, doRonRon, KingAmra No
Jonathan This chat will not be a "book report!" I do want to touch on a number of topics & issues she raised though! Because I think its a reasonably widely held understanding that what she's written is perhaps the closest thing to using NLP with Animals in training --- and she writes about animal training in a way that is aimed also at helping us to learn how to train people better! So let's start there. And if you want to know more than people discuss here -- I encourage people to support her work and buy/read her book.
Jonathan OK -- Karen's sections in the book -- as a quickie outline:
REINFORCEMENT: Better Than Rewards
SHAPING: Developing Super Performance
STIMULUS CONTROL: Cooperation Without Coercion
UNTRAINING: Using Reinforcement
NLPSGI Hey, this is Husband Stuff!
Jonathan Bigtime! And Wife Stuff, too!
Tranzpupy Or boyfriend stuff... Or BOSS stuff!
NLP_D00D Or TEACHER stuff!
Jonathan Oh boy, I know why you all came here! You think I'm going to start talking about SEX! LOL!
Finter ...coughing...
doRonRon Sex as reinforcement? Hmmm...
Eloquence Sex is too sloooww...
NLPSGI NO, NO, go on, we are sorry... Let's get back to animal training.
NLP_D00D Animal Training? Like "doggie hypnosis"?
What can we learn from Doggie Hypnosis?
Jonathan Yeah, Doggie Hypnosis! OK. There seem to be a whole lot of folks into NLP who've done some dog training. Joe Riggio, who has two chats on this website, trained dogs for years...
NLPSGI Including Richard Bandler!
Eloquence There are only a few lines that are really important in her [Karen's] book.
Jonathan Quentin! What did you learn of value from Karen?
Eloquence Sex and reinforcement. Reinforcement requires INSTANT response. Anything positive must be reinforced instantly. How prepared are you, those who wish to train their husbands.
NLPSGI Eloquently said.
Jonathan And why does "Reinforcement only with Positive means" work better than both positive & negative Reinforcement?
Eloquence Saves one decision. Therefore it can be unconsciously acted on.
NLPSGI According to her, should negative also be immediately responded to?
Eloquence Not as I recall. Leap in with a small reward at every positive. Not sex, a hint of sex.
NLPSGI Hmmmm, so ignore negative and reinforce positive.
Eloquence Yep. Less justification gets built into the relationship.
Jonathan She pretty much ignores negative reinforcement; she's more interested in Timing of reinforcement, size of reinforcement, and schedules of reinforcement.
Tranzpupy Just ignoring the negative works pretty well with human people...
Finter So if someone is upset, ignoring them is better than comforting them?
Eloquence No.
Venus That would be awful, Finter.
Eloquence Pick anything about what they are doing that is positive.
Simon_UK But what if they are convinced that their "good" action is not good? Are you then reinforcing the negative?
Venus Simon, can you give an example?
Simon_UK Let's say that someone has low self-esteem. They perform a task well and you compliment. They however feel that the task was not worthy of your compliment. Thus we have a paradox.
NLPSGI Ah, that is when you go with the facts. Don't start with their behavior; show them the Positive results, the real things they can not argue with -- the bottom line stuff -- then pace back to them.
Eloquence Compliments are too slow. SMILE.
NLPSGI So true, and easily argued by anyone, self-esteem or not. Chunk size is important when complimenting.
Jonathan LOL Eloquence! Smile INSIDE & OUT.
Venus Don't you think a compliment needs to be sincere? And, can you give an example, Kathleen?
NLPSGI Yes. For example, if someone does a good job, and you tell them but they argue [the compliment], then show them the results: what did it accomplish? Increased sales? Or pile gone, things filed... whatever is physically different that you can demonstrate.
Venus Oh, ok -- that's a good idea
Jonathan Cool. Let them make the choice afterwards.
NLPSGI Then pace back to them.
Venus What does that mean in this example, Kathleen?
NLPSGI External reference, then internal reference! So how does it feel to see that pile gone?
Venus Oh, good!!!
Eloquence Nice.
Simon_UK And this may be accomplished in the informal environment of the workplace?
NLPSGI Absolutely, Simon.
Jonathan If that's after they've done the desired behavior, then -- that may be getting into what Pryor calls "shaping."
Venus Shaping -- is that getting them to do more of the same?
Jonathan Unless it's something they've been doing regularly but inconsistently. Let me be clearer! Reinforcing is about adjusting ongoing behaviors. Shaping is about creating new ones. Let's talk about it from an animal-training point of view and find out what it tells us!
Shaping Desired Behavior
Jonathan I can distill Ms. Pryor's comments on Shaping to be based on Targeting, Mimicry, & Modeling. Targeting is about building a behavior with piecemeal elements... that string together bit by bit.
Venus Like chaining states?
Jonathan Yes, yes, yes! Venus gets the 1st Chocolate Bunny for the night!!! Great leap!
Venus YAY! I finally got 1!!! :-)
NLPSGI Wooo hooo!
Jonathan Mimicry is something some animals do easily & well, so if you demonstrate, they follow.
Simon_UK But does the mimicry show signs of "pacing"?
Jonathan Yes, Simon, or more like Leading, so that they themselves pace you into learning what it is you want them to learn!
Venus Does that ever really happen Jonathan?
Jonathan Never, Venus, I'm sure its just a hopeful fantasy. *Wink!*
Venus LOL!
Jonathan And Modeling (according to Ms. Pryor's material, not a reference to 'NLP modeling') is pushing the subject through something. Like, handing your husband the garbage can and pushing him down the driveway.
Eloquence Targeting would be smiling every time he went NEAR the garbage can.
Jonathan Laura definitely didn't do that to me last night. No way, Jose. She didn't say "get off the computer and take the garbage out." She definitely didn't do that.
Venus Hahaha! That's good to know!
Jonathan Quentin -- you read the book too -- what did you learn from her discussion of shaping?
Eloquence Smile when approaching man at computer.
Venus So is this stuff best when its *nonverbal*?
Jonathan Yes -- she mentioned 10 high-level rules for shaping -- (and categorized the 'short cuts' to shaping as the above 3)
Eloquence Very specific steps. Reinforce any behaviour that comes close to what you want. To teach a chicken to dance, give a small reward if it stands on one leg. Keep is small and within the half second rule. We don't want thinking here.
Jonathan Yes indeed! I had some friends over a while back and Laura (who was our dog's primary trainer though I was involved) used many of Pryor's techniques to demonstrate something. She shaped a totally new behavior in under 5 minutes in front of the group. Quick & fun!
Simon_UK Thus establishing a chain of "foody" anchors?
Jonathan Yes, perhaps Simon -- One of the rules of thumb was, minimize the size of the reward -- and slowly make the reinforcement less easy to acquire.
Eloquence Right on Simon, Absolutely. No sex in supermarkets.
Venus LOL!
FullStop So just one doggie treat instead of 10?
Jonathan Here's an example with food -- tiny sliced hotdogs! Laura had a spot (a penny or bottletop) on the ground. You don't need to use food -- you can use a "clicker" too -- which is like auditory reinforcement. So she puts the spot on the ground -- and Zoe got the hotdog when she touched her nose to the spot. The 2nd time, she hit the spot faster. The 3rd time it was instant, but Laura was already on to building the next step. She put the spot elsewhere. Zoe went for it elsewhere and didn't get anything, but rapidly went back to the 1st place and then looked. Didn't get anything, then went to the new place and did. By the 3rd round, she was touching both spots. And she built a totally new sequence of behavioral choices that led to the reward.
Eloquence Dancing dog routine
Simon_UK Seems similar to back-propagation neural network programming to me. [Editor's note: I didn't respond to this at the time because it didn't suit the main thrust of the chat, but I think Simon's comparison was brilliant so I left it in!]
Jonathan Laura got really good at shaping dog behaviors. I mean, I was cutting the lawn in half the time, Going from scrubbing dishes right to vaccuuming, etc. Whew!
Venus LOL! Hahaha!
doRonRon :)
Jonathan Interesting techniques.
NLPSGI I'm taking notes! When John comes back from Europe, you are in trouble when he reads the chat log!
Jonathan :) Tell me about it! Actually, don't tell me about it. Actually, let's talk about something completely different.
Venus It'll be too late by then, Kathleen!
Eloquence What I liked about her technique was the way in which it was the reverse of the usual paradigms for learning.
Jonathan Yes! Quentin's right on the money!
Eloquence Thanks. She moved from certainty to uncertainty. The trainee moves from the certainty of getting a small reward...
NLPSGI Hmmm install and test.
Venus Like memorizing your speech from the back to the front?
Jonathan Venus, not in this case, at least I don't think so.
Venus Oh
Jonathan Here's why and Quentin can offer his ideas if he thinks I missed it. In the last chapter she talks of UNTRAINING behaviors. I think her entire book at a process level is about UNtraining OLD ideas about how best to train, to learn, and to condition, while she talks in entertaining (not ridiculous) and interesting ways about how much more elegantly and quickly people can learn.
Eloquence When every positive response is instantly rewarded there is a certainty in that for the trainee. It is ONLY when it is time to move on to a new behaviour that the rewards become less certain.
Jonathan Quiz: Is she talking of learning how to train animals from what we've learned about human learning? Or is she talking of learning how to train people from what we've learned about animal learning?
Eloquence She was talking about training people to train... whatever.
Jonathan Or ANY permutation of the above?
NLPSGI Ooooh, fancy word, scooby snack for Jonathan!
Jonathan Permutation? *chomp chomp chomp* Thanks! Let's coalesce all this stuff together :)
NLPSGI Ohhh, another one!
Venus LOL!
Jonathan Scooby Snack?
NLPSGI Oh ok.
Jonathan *chomp chomp chomp*
NLPSGI But you are making a habit of this
Jonathan YEAH, YEAH, habit! *chomp chomp chomp* Hey now... but he habit coming to him.
Eloquence LOL
NLPSGI I had a dog that would do that. He would go up to you and do every trick he knew just to get a treat. All of them at once!
Venus So you trained a routine!
Eloquence And then darn it you wanted to change it.
NLPSGI How would this author describe this process? What did he learn to do?
Jonathan I think Karen had something to say about that, actually. She suggested that behavior might come from a rapid withdrawal of reward from each behavior, rather than a slow withdrawal of the reinforcement.
NLPSGI Huh.
Jonathan That might lead to a rapid cycling-through of whatever the dog thought you wanted to see, because they expected every iteration of SOME behavior to get the response!
NLPSGI Yes, well isnt that the process you described? Instant response to positive, consistently.
Jonathan Yes, except -- over time -- the # of iterations of the same behavior that get the reward -- drops. Eventually, the animal gets the response to a much smaller # of times they do the behavior.
Eloquence And it's less regular.
Jonathan Yes, Quentin. No point in rewarding every third perfomance. They know when to perform. Trainers need random number generators.
NLPSGI Tell that to my dog.
Jonathan Tell it to your dog! LOL! Kathleen -- Both you & John already do this amazingly well with people, though!
NLPSGI Well this was a long time ago Before John (BJ). Now I have a raptor. Well, actually, he's a conure, but he thinks he is a raptor. We have one of those giant steel confinement units, with the alarms.
IntriKate I have a conure (small parrot), too!
Finter Like a Canary
Paolo lol
NLPSGI Hey, Finter. You want to meet my canary? You wouldn't last 5 seconds! LOL!
Venus LOL!
AccessNLP Any tips for how to train a couple of Chihuahuas to STOP saying, "Yo quiero NLP!"
Jonathan LOLOLOLO! Dave!!! ROTFL! For that, we'd be looking in the UNTRAINING section...
AccessNLP Untraining? What's the difference?
Jonathan Karen Pryor might very well have said -- "If you take your Dog to Taco Bell, you'd better make a run for the border!"
Animal Training & Anchoring
Jonathan Here in Florida, we have 1,500,000 tiny lizards we keep out in the yard.
AccessNLP Everyone does this?
Jonathan We train them to crawl over everything & hang out on the sliding glass doors.
Venus Do their tails come off when you catch them?
Jonathan Why catch them when I already feed them the local mosquitos?
NLPSGI I have a bat in my back yard for that.
Jonathan Baseball Bat?
NLPSGI Richard bought us a bat-house for the yard and it has been great fun. It took a while for them to come. Two years. Gotta get the human smell off the wood.
AccessNLP Cool!
Jonathan That's wild! I suppose that would be a problem. Now another area of the book which might interest you NLPers -- is that Karen had quite a bit to say about ANCHORING. But... you wouldn't want to know more about that, I guess...
Venus Yes we would!!! Tell us, tell us, tell us! Please?
Eloquence No, no, tell us more!
Paolo Responses ad infinitum...
Jonathan Quentin -- do you hear any distant sharp piercing dog whistles? Karen gave a brief example of conditioned responses to stimuli -- with sharp whistles for herding dogs -- in NZ -- where "the countryside is wide and the dog may be far off."
Eloquence Too true. It may even have been sent away if it is a hunterway.
Finter 'get by Shep, get by'
Eloquence Close finter. Close. "Get by Shep, get by" is close.
Finter The words "teaching your grandmother to suck eggs" come to mind when you mention sheep dog training.
Jonathan OK, You'll LOVE this -- Karen Pryor defines 4 rules for perfect stimulus control
(1) Desired behavior is immediate in response to stimuli
(2) Behavior is reserved for whenever ONLY the stimuli occurs.
(3) Behavior never occurs in response to other stimuli
(4) No other behavior occurs when that stimuli is presented
*chuckle* Now..... what does THAT set of conditions sound like to you?
Simon_UK I'm wondering, immediate or adequate?
AccessNLP Ummmmm.... values alignment?
Venus Anchoring!!!
Paolo Anchor?
Jonathan Nice answers! What about congruence?
Paolo Hmmm yeah!
Jonathan Is the dog thinking "hm, should I sit? Or pee on his carpet?"
Venus OK, LOL!
Simon_UK Terribly unique anchoring - must be for very special cases. Or rather, its success will be better for more unique cases.
Paolo No possibility for dilution there.
Jonathan Perhaps. If anchoring is taught in a way that suggests it is best done with common signals, are they using unique enough anchors? I always keep in mind a list of anchoring conditions you can find in a number of the books. One of the interesting conditions is -- UNIQUENESS.
Eloquence Good girl, Good girl
Jonathan The more unique, the better, right? (thats not the only condition).
Simon_UK Walking past a lamp-post is a common signal, does that elicit marking in dogs?
Jonathan ROTFL -- nope -- but what it often does do is make it more likely for them to sniff the already-marked lamp-post.
Paolo The lamp-post is only an anchor if another dog has marked it! Ha ha ha!
Jonathan Yes Paolo! So it is an anchor, initially probably visual. But do we really know? Perhaps they first noticed it by olfactory!
Paolo Bunny? Just kidding...
Jonathan YES Paolo gets the 2nd Chocolate Bunny, in a bikini!
Paolo Woohoo!
Venus Yay, Paolo!
AccessNLP I have a friend who taught his dog all the verbal commands in German
Jonathan :) Was it an English Sheepdog? Or a Shih-tzu?
Simon_UK (1) can we know, (2) do we need to know -- by what means the dog first responded to the lampost anchor thing? Are we really interested in how the dog performs the task enough in order to decide what mental processes are going on. And indeed if they are usefully analogous to human responses.
Jonathan Content wise, its curious, Process-wise, we all have our responses to stimuli...
Paolo Do dogs have preferred rep systems?
Venus Scent?
Eloquence Definitely. It is how they define themselves and others.
Jonathan If you put 1,000,000 drops of water in a vat, and 1 drop of urine along with it, supposedly dogs can smell that. Auditory & Olfactory are their major senses!
Eloquence 1,000,000 drop of water = bathtub full
Paolo Makes sense
Finter Jonathan - where do get those anecdotes from about vats of water an urine :)
Jonathan Oh, Finter, hang out long enough with a bunch of weirdo dog trainers and you hear all kinds of odd stories!
Finter Hehe!
Venus Boy, I'm glad I can't smell it!
NLPSGI Gustatory too! I think that one works the best.
Jonathan Mmmmmmmmmm, Chocolate Bunnies.........
Finter Chocolate Bunnies - thats a rude English colloquialism
Jonathan Aren't they all, Finter?
Finter Yes, most of them, anyway! :)
Paolo Whatever representational system they use in their reference structure.
Jonathan As Quentin said (bears repeating) at least where dogs are concerned -- it might be useful to have a larger frame of understanding for THEIR sensory representational awareness. Best way to do that is to block out the other senses temporarily, like, wear eye-masks, and use earplugs, and have various scents brought near your nose.
NLPSGI I guess aromatherapy would be good for the doggies: Essence of Bacon, Essence of Liver. Essence of cat, for stimulation.
Venus LOL! Kathleen!
NLPSGI Hmmmmm is there anyone using olfactory for training?
Jonathan Great question! Is anyone using Olfactory!!!? I know one trainer ended up using it poorly one time. Man, did he eat the wrong things the night before.
NLPSGI Hehehe
Pacing & Leading Dogs, Cats, & Babies!
Simon_UK So do dogs use mirroring to gain enhanced sensory perception?
Jonathan Sometimes they do, Simon, Pryor calls that Mimicry.
Finter Yes.
Eloquence Dogs can pace and lead brilliantly.
Paolo Heel, Fido!
Finter Jonathan paces and leads his dog.
Jonathan Yes -- I do use pacing & leading with my dog.
Venus Really?
Eloquence How pant pant?
Simon_UK I have read on the newsgroup that such abilities lead to enhanced perception.
Jonathan If its late at night, and she's energetic, I can pace & lead her from excited to asleep in under 10 minutes. Sometimes much faster, but 10 is a good outside number.
AccessNLP Yep
Finter So you mirror her breathing?
Eloquence Holly used to pace my breathing when I was asleep till I followed her and then she would stop breathing.
Jonathan Yes, along with blinks and posture. The baby is much faster, by the way. :)
Finter You can pace and lead babies? Wow. My sister is due with her baby tommorow, I will experiment.
Venus Really, you can put the baby to sleep in under 10 min?
Jonathan Sure.
Venus That is *so* cool, Jonathan!
Jonathan "Most of the time" its about 3-5 minutes. About 30% of the time, she's not even CLOSE to the mood for that.
thefool I can put a baby to sleep in less than a minute... also a grownup.
Venus No way.
thefool It's called the "live long and prosper" touch.
NLPSGI I know some dogs dont like it if YOU mimick them.
Jonathan Yes! They often find it to be challenging! So, cross mirror. But as for mirroring dogs -- most of them pant so damn' fast -- you'd pass out, SO... breathe at exactly half-speed!
Finter Do it in rhythm
Jonathan Yes, get the same rhythm.
NLPSGI Put my son to sleep every night! That way it teaches them to fall asleep naturally. It actually trains them how to fall asleep.
Venus That's really nice, Kathleen!
Finter I will try it when she has the baby, hopfully tommorow
Jonathan Too cool! Now, I'm pretty good about pacing & leading with Dogs, but I had NO clue how to do it with Cats. Rex Sikes once described how he does it: For pacing Cats, pace their breathing, then, stop, breathe reallllllly deeply, then pick up the pattern again.
Eloquence Pace, speed up, STOP. That wakes them up.
Venus When I sigh, Mercedes will sigh, too. And when I yawn, so will she.
Finter Cats are a league unto ther own.
NLPSGI Babies, if you pace them, will fall asleep and learn how to fall asleep naturally. We can go into detail on how if we want to distract the animal thing for a min
Jonathan We can! Because this was about what can we learn FROM this subject, and how it can be applied!
NLPSGI I have another slightly different way; it still works as well. Doc told me that I should put my son in his crib and let him cry till he fell asleep.
Jonathan Yup -- that's the T. Berry Brazelton Pattern-Interrupt for "dependent parents!"
doRonRon That worked well with mine.
NLPSGI Yet, he was premature and they did not want him to cry that much, so, I said let's try NLP. So I would put him on his tummy, and as he cried I patted his back in the ryhthm of his crying, very fast but lightly at first. Then I would simply slow down a little at a time. Very simple, takes a few minutes, but its worth it. Then I would go so slow, that there would be one pat every 15 or 20 seconds. A pat, then stop.
Venus Yeah, and it's painless for everybody! That's great!
Jonathan WOW you slowed down much further than I did -- I'm going to try that!!!
NLPSGI He would be asleep, worked every time. And the crying each night would lessen, and he would stop faster; I would have to slow down quicker to keep up with him.
Paolo Very nice, Kathleen, wow. That's brilliant.
Simon_UK I've seen mothers do that when they're rocking prams or holding the baby in their arms.
NLPSGI This also trained him how to slow himself down and stop crying.
Tranzpupy Wow, now if I could just pat myself!
Tangram Wow.
NLPSGI Trained him how to fall asleep to slow down his internal pace for deeper sleep, even if he was not crying. I put him to sleep this way. Great bonding and pacing.
Finter Can I use that method to get out of bed in the morning, in reverse? LOL!
NLPSGI Sure!
Venus Sweet :-)
NLPSGI I still rock back and forth on line; I'm trained.
Jonathan I'm impressed. I'll try it out tonight!
Simon_UK Hmm, interesting, as babies' visual development is not good, is there something else going on to achieve the pacing?
Finter How does the person's unconscious mind pick up on your breathing (pacing & leading)? Is it purely auditory?
Simon_UK It's almost as if there are two classes of senses, a coarse (everyday) sense system: and a subtle (NLP) sense system.
Finter It happened to me so many times while I try it, I will sing a song, and the other person starts singing outload!
Jonathan Finter -- about Breathing -- you play guitar, right?
Finter Yes.
Jonathan OK, finter. When you tune a guitar, you play a note or harmonic on one string, and then another note or harmonic on another, right? What happens if they're not perfect? When you have both notes resonating together? Or -- at the same time, but not the same note? What happens?
Finter Yeah they phase. I can hear phasing so acutely! I hear it, then I feel it, and I get different feelings for different phasings.
Simon_UK Perfect pitch is a matter of playing a lot. You then imagine the note. More often than not it is at perfect pitch. You have to feel confident though, in my experience as a cornet player. You just get to "know" that the note is right. It becomes very difficult when people are playing out of tune. Painful even!
Finter Yeah
Jonathan Yes. NOW. Breathing is exactly the same way. Try it out.
Finter Wow, that's a great metaphor.
Simon_UK Pacing is breathing in tune?
Jonathan Yes, Simon...
Simon_UK I'll try that out tomorrow at the department meeting.
Jonathan Cool!
Finter But how does the other person pick up on this?
Finter In auditory fashion?
Simon_UK Through their "subtle sensory system."
Finter Which is a 6th sense? Is it a 6th sense jonathan?
Jonathan It's primarily kinesthetic for me. Some people train it "psychically" and the results their students achieved were spotty at best.
Wrapping Up!
Jonathan OK folks -- I'm wrapping it up -- let me take this moment to thank you for coming & for joining in!
Paolo Thanks again for a cool topic and sharing with us a few more distinctions. Always appreciated.
Jonathan Thank you all for coming. Its great to see everyone here and having fun and maybe even learning something together. I enjoyed your involvement!
doRonRon Thanks, Jonathan, for having this session!
DLuzi, Tranzpupy Thanks, Jonathan!
Jonathan Thank you all! Thanks Dom, Kay, Kate & everyone!
IntriKate G'nite!
Venus Good night everybody, & thank you, Jonathan!
IRC CHAT OVER!

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