Chat Log: MetaPrograms (chat #2)

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Sleight of Mouth
IRC Chat Log, January 15, 1998

MetaPrograms (chat #2)
JonathanA Everyone doing well?
kay y, thank you, and you?
JonathanA in a great state!
kay Florida. no ice. no snow.
JonathanA a little hyper, perhaps -- did kewl things today
kay tell us?
JonathanA Florida is a grate state too... we have that aquafer thing going for us
kay wotsa aquafer?
JonathanA well, I'll talk about the other stuff another time. Just wanted to kinda ease into this... I'd like to get started by talking about how and why we use metaprograms. And we do use them, ALL the time, without knowing about it, and we also have our own metaprograms. Basically, lets start from the basics: The Map is Not the Territory! So our internal representations are different from reality, and we make internal representations based on our sensing of whats happening. Using the 5 senses.
kay gotcha
JonathanA And we generalize, distort, and delete from information coming in, so as to create these really weird skewed incomplete maps... AND YET... we're always doing the best we can. Well, you hear in traditional psychological theories... "we have complexes over things." a complex is a set of associations... or whatever gobbledygook... but basically we have internal patterns and frameworks within which we understand the world. We look for patterns. Your brain... you're unconscious.. mind... is a pattern-seeker! k? Everyone with me?
Dan_26 gotcha
kay y
JonathanA others here?
Ollie_ Yep - not unconscious yet ;)
JonathanA (just synching everyone up here)
glen_ster ok
kay whoops.. my unconscious just tried to sneak out...
JonathanA ;) alrighty then! ;) So we have these internal frameworks and filters through which we receive, structure, and then feed information. now. One of the ways or methods that NLP'ers have for understanding other people far more effectively, is to learn how to perceive, understand, and provide information back to... other people's metaprograms. And there are a lot of metaprograms to consider! Each one is like a filter. Here are some examples. And as you consider others, I want you to list them here! Introverted vs. Extroverted. Sameness vs Difference.
kay detail vs. big picture?
JonathanA Chunk Size
kay ok
JonathanA kay -- same as chunk size ;) good point!
Dan_26 can we take a step back for a moment and define metaprogram?
kay towards or away?
JonathanA Sure Dan, thanks for asking. Meta Program is a general term for people's internal filters/frameworks for understanding their own reality. To gain rapport with others, you look for and learn how other people filter information, and provide information to them using their filtering methodologies (MetaPrograms). Example: Chunk Size! Some people love to talk about the details -- and you can't shut 'em up!
kay oh, click! Shelle Rose Charvet calls them "traits"!
JonathanA Some people don't talk a lot, and they just talk in generalities. Kewl
Ollie_ Is "towards or away" one? (i.e., pursuance vs. avoidance?)
JonathanA Well, you won't get rapport with a tiny-chunk detail sorter by describing the big picture. Yes Ollie, Towards or AwayFrom is a good pair. Heirarchy of Criteria is another. One MetaProgram is PRIMARY SENSORY SYSTEM! People say "he's so Visual." ;)
Ollie_ (Kay suggested it... don't want to take the credit from her)
JonathanA ;)
kay shucks
JonathanA Others might love to get into talking about "FEELINGS." Like, so can you *see* what I mean? No, I *feel* a little confused by that.
Dan_26 safe to say a given metaprogram may differ among different contexts then (?)
JonathanA Introversion/Extroversion is like Attention to Self/Others. Absolutely, Dan. Sure.
Ollie_ logical vs. intuitive?
JonathanA Another NLP Tenet: Behavior Goes To Context. All behaviors have "some" purpose in "some" settings. So we do change behaviors in different settings, and thats natural. Yes Ollie, thats a good one... and also Convincer Strategy (Channel/Mode). Stress Response (Choice/Feelings/Thinking). Modal Operators!!! I love that one. I think working with Modal Operators is one of the most powerful tools of influence around!
Ollie_ Why is it that rep. systems seem to be given more emphasis than other metaprograms?
JonathanA Because its the easiest for people to pick up. ;) ...And then use effectively with a minimum of practice and integration.
Dan_26 well, let's discuss that one :)
JonathanA Lets get a round of responses...
kay we pick up the rep systems by using our rep systems...
JonathanA My preference is always to go for what we dont do well yet, but we can start with the easy one...
Dan_26 my experience consciously appears to be limited to modalities, so i'm open for any
Ollie_ I've read tons on rep systems, but I don't know how much other people here know about them
JonathanA other opinions?
glen_ster i prefer moving from familiar to unfamiliar
kay i'm easy... so to speak
Ollie_ ISTM the importance of the other metaprograms is under-represented
JonathanA I agree Ollie, I think there's far too little out there. Hmmmm (an idea sparks) big grin
kay yea?
JonathanA ...is grinning a big toothy grin
Player ...mirrors Jonathan's grin
JonathanA OK well, lets cover the rep systems one briefly and move on to others quick as everyone's comfortable.
Ollie_ Don't keep us in suspenders
kay kay is grinning but she can't type purple {editor's note; purple is an IRC chat artifact of "actions"}
JonathanA Player, up for an example with me?
Player sure
JonathanA OK. Player, mirror my rep-system metaprogs during this conversation -- I'll lead, you pace. K?
Player k
JonathanA I was out driving today, heading south on 275 from Tampa to St. Petersburg, and I looked out around the road and I saw the conditions were nasty! Rain everywhere, limited visibility, grey fog, just grossness. I was trying to picture a nice day, and it improved my focus, but I couldn't get the ideal perspective in mind. See here, I dunno, I enjoyed myself anyway.
Player I see your predicament. You just didnt see it... If you look for things to enjoy you can usually see them right in front of you
greyhound I'm not grasping any of what you are trying to get across to me
JonathanA ;) grey hang on just a bit we're demonstrating something (rapport first)
kallee grey hound:you don't see it?
greyhound :P
Ollie_ greyhound, I feel you may be approaching it from the wrong angle
Dan_26 isn't it amazing how sometimes it seems so easy now to feel with your eyes greyhound?
greyhound Its just not clicking
JonathanA ok so I guess I got into a better state and I found my breathing slowing down a bit as I remembered a really relaxing time... and even though I had a bit of a shoulder cramp it wasn't bad, and I'd just eaten so my gut was happy ;)
Ollie_ :)
greyhound feel with my eyes? shiver
JonathanA (funny)
greyhound hrrmmnnn
JonathanA It felt nice
kay grey Jonathans trying to hold on to a really nice day,
greyhound :)
kay and it slips out of his hand, all wet
Player Feels good to relax
JonathanA But then, I heard a noise behind and to the left, sirens...
greyhound oh, was it warm and calm outside?
Ollie_ tell me more...
JonathanA and the sounds of the rain and the tires and the wipers seemed louder...
Ollie_ I'm listening...
JonathanA but I turned around and instantly I knew, I just heard that voice -- its not you they're after... its the dude in front of you going 90!
kay kewl
kallee cops they'll never take me alive
greyhound I was only going 80
JonathanA Player was just following along. An obvious Visual-Kinesthetic-Auditory sequence.
kay obvious.
kallee kewl
Ollie_ Yes, it's not often that clear-cut in real life, though
greyhound I still didn't catch that
JonathanA Now. Most folks have a primary sensory representation system, but everyone uses all of them, some better than others. Some will be more visual more often, etc or not.
Ollie_ (Although greyhound is pretty clearly primarily kino)
Player I can see that
greyhound its my nose
JonathanA With regard to decision strategies, for whatever purpose, people will often cycle through 2-3 rep systems in order to get to a decision point. Mind you, that decision point might be one which ends up deciding to investigate further.
kallee i have x-ray vision, can feel others thoughts and hear an ant walk
JonathanA It might not be the final decision point. Lets stop for a sec with that issue:
Stygian by cycling you mean mental visualization (and whatever you call it when you think in sound, smell, feeling, etc.)?
JonathanA People use particular sequences of rep-systems, in order to make certain decisions. And when the subject matter or decision changes, so can the strategy/order they choose. Not quite Styg... Car dealers often know this.
kay so its the sequence thats the meta program
JonathanA 1 MetaProgram is "Primary repsystem", another MetaProgram is "Decision strategy rep-system sequence"
kay oh. thanks
Stygian How is it then?
JonathanA ok here it is... a car dealer might know that in order to buy a car -- to really know I've made a good decision, he might know that I go through a VKA strategy. How would he know? He'd have asked me! What's important to you in a car? "Well, I have to like the way it looks. And its gotta feel right to me, and I don't want to hear any noise on the road. s'gotta be quiet."
greyhound smell of new interior
kallee how do you know when you have made a good buy?
Stygian good gas milage
Ollie_ So the first stage of greyhound's strategy for buying a car would be K, right?
JonathanA So we can use the words I used to determine I have a VKA strategy for buying a car!!!
kay or.. it can't look stodgy. not uncomfortable... and not noisy... and
JonathanA Ollie, we'd want to ask him HOW he understands good gas mileage... RIGHT kay!
greyhound sure, pee on the tires a few times, smell the interior, chase it down the road... sold!
JonathanA We'd repeat the sequence back to him with NEW details. LOL greyhound
kallee get him to drive the car
Ollie_ Actually, *smell* of a new interior - do we consider than olfactory, or lump it in with kinesthetic?
JonathanA Smell is Olfactory
kay gocha.. and grey, your a dog
JonathanA not lumped in.
greyhound is lump a K word?
JonathanA This particular process is VERY well described in Michael Brooks "Instant Rapport;" And I highly recommend that book
Ollie_ Oh, I've got that somewhere
greyhound ok
Ollie_ OK. Olfactory and gustatory are normally left out 'cause it's easier to understand with only 3, right?
JonathanA not quite Ollie -- but close! VAKOG is the acronym.
Ollie_ (and because they're less common?)
JonathanA O & G is normally left out for several reasons. Most people have a primary 3.
greyhound and E, for ESP (sorry, bad dog)
JonathanA another reason is a sequence of 3 is typically enough to qualify as a well-formed strategy. --Yes Ollie, I think that'd be correct too.
greyhound when choosing what to have for dinner, would you access Gi? maybe Oi internal
kay grey you read my mind.
JonathanA Sure Grey -- re: Accessing Gi
kay can a sequence be something like V A V K V?
JonathanA Sure, it can be a strategy sequence, but it wouldn't meet NLP's well-formedness conditions. I won't get into that here. You'll get it in the prac training Kay! And others can read up on it in various places if they want to.
kay ok! is that a threat? ;-)
greyhound its really not mind reading, I'm just sensory aware of a few things
JonathanA Is everyone reasonably comfortable with the ideas above?
kay, kallee, Dan_26, Ollie_, greyhound y
JonathanA People's primary rep systems are also their most comfortable rep FILTERS!
Internal Vs. External
Ollie_ Do you mean, they filter out things which don't match their primary rep systems?
JonathanA Yes Ollie thats often what happens -- it'll be like they're completely ignoring you, or they just seem confused! Lets go to internal vs external... Why don't you all discuss it here for a bit. get involved. Let the conversation flow on THIS topic. You know the direction we're headed in... explore the topic.
kay well... about the car... if i only care about what I think
greyhound metaprograms? internal external?
kay Internal
JonathanA yes grey
Dan_26 hmmmm. . . are we dicussin the map vs. the territory in relation to rep. systems?
JonathanA ...is watching from the sidelines here
kay I'm not going to be influenced by dealer saying
kallee The authorities all agree but its up to you
kay Joe blow says this is a really good deal.... I don't care what the authorities say, I think its a bad car
kallee internal
greyhound yet, somehow I think you still will be taking in sensory data to decide on the car somewhere. He may be able to figure out when and what for that data is, and pace it
Dan_26 ah, internal frame of reference vs. external?
kallee how do you know when you have bought a good car?
kay I feel like I own the road. And it makes me look cute.
Dan_26 i don't know what it is you do when you decide for yourself that you have discovered you have found the right automobile for you. . .
JonathanA Dan VERY GOOD
greyhound yeah, good dan
Ollie_ Not sure about internal vs. external - the next thing is usually Remembered vs. Constructed, isn't it?
kallee so you use both systems too , kay
kay yea.
Dan_26 but i just want you to know that as that process is taking place, you might just find this car to be intersting, for your own reasons, or not. . . :)
kallee Thats common internal for decisions external for evidence
JonathanA Yes Ollie, hah!
kay but my friend says not to buy a foreign car... now is that external, Jonathan?
JonathanA Kallee is on-the-money
Ollie_ Is that the same thing?
JonathanA Not really Ollie -- Remembered vs Constructed is more about timelines -- Past, Future
Ollie_ i.e., remembered = external, constructed = internal? Oh OK
kay kallee like seeing the word and does it feel right?
JonathanA Can often be linked to internal reference vs external reference...but is not the same thing.
greyhound I wonder if real dogs construct smells
JonathanA (to my understanding, anyway -- if you feel differently tell me so)
kallee my girl friend will keep changing clothes until i tell her she looks pretty
JonathanA hehheh No doubt, greyhound, otherwise how could they get excited about hearing the name of a dog-friend from the neighborhood!
kay kallee external...?
kallee kay: right on
JonathanA Remember dogs have MUCH more powerful olfactory systems than we do -- its a primary for them -- so when they remember another dog, smell plays a very important role.
greyhound hrmmnnn
JonathanA Anyway, they hear the name, they think about playing with that dog, and they get excited (assuming we're talking about a smart dog here).
kallee but when she buys clothes even if we are together she ignores me
kay kallee internal...?
kallee she says" you just want something skimpy"
JonathanA skimpy = visual & external
Dan_26 would that be AOK?
kallee so in different contex different strategys
JonathanA sure!
greyhound hehehe
Ollie_ I still haven't got the hang of internal & external - could you give a really obvious example?
JonathanA And the moment you're talking about a different purchase, the sale strategy changes to something else again!
Dan_26 skimpy= visual and external hmmmm. . . is that external based on her friend's statement or based on her own conclusion that this outfit is skimpy?
kay i think external in that people will think its skimpy
kallee when she buys she cares how she feel and looks to herself; when shes going out she wants me (and others ) to admire her
JonathanA Its the only way for kallee to experience skimpy clothing on someone else. Kino would only play a role in terms of the feel of the material, which would be the same skimpy or big, or the feel of the skin in the places there isn't any clothing... ;) which probably isn't the case when she's shopping and trying stuff on
kay if you responded to the outfit visually (eyes bug out) and didn't say anything, would it be the same? or does she need to hear the words?
Dan_26 ok, so she's hallucinating others' opinion of her appearance and basing the decision on that rather than simply looking in the mirror and thinking "skimpy" just by virtue of the fact of what she's wearing
JonathanA depends on her strategy for appreciation, kay!!!!
kallee she is wise to me My eyes bug out and she doesn't buy it
Ollie_ So, is it: internal is how you feel, what you see, what you hear... external is how you look, sound, & feel to other people?
kallee however I can buy it for her
kay so she has to hear it...
JonathanA ok this is all quite useful but we're extending the discussion to include repsystems again! Lets move on to another MetaProgram
kay ok
kallee is ollie cler Johnathan?
Ollie_ Oops, sorry, I think I missed the point of that one...
JonathanA s'ok...
Ollie_ internal & external is a separate metaprogram from rep systems, right?
kallee y
JonathanA Internal is making the decision internally, feeling things in your body, hearing your own voice talking to yourself...
kallee seeing yourself...
JonathanA seeing things from your own eyes in your memories (associated as opposed to dissociated). External is paying more attention to things going on around you... and in your memories its more hearing external conversations... seeing other people doing things...
greyhound thats interesting
kallee taking feedback
JonathanA seeing yourself in the picture with others... sure
kallee uptime
Ollie_ OK right - I think I've got it now.
JonathanA cool!
greyhound is a stomach ache internal or external?
JonathanA depends on if you see yourself in a picture with weird colors around the stomach.
kallee yours or someone elses?
JonathanA How YOU experience it determines the answer, grey!
Dan_26 excellent
JonathanA LOL! Kallee -- exactly!
greyhound hrmmnnn
JonathanA This is all about paying very close attention to the WAY people experience things.
greyhound hmmnnn
Ollie_ Is there a definitive list of metaprograms? Or is it pretty open-ended?
JonathanA And other people experience things VERY differently than us, often, and the subtleties such as whether someone is associated vs dissociated in their pictures can make a lot of difference! Its open-ended. I've seen some lists here and there (various prac/master prac manuals have good lists). And whatever contrasting elements of experience you can imagine are real metaprograms.
kay associated / dissasociated = another meta program...?
JonathanA I wondered who would grab at that seed I left out there... Sure Kay, its pretty much a fully Visual MetaProgram. There's not a lot available in the standard books out on the shelves.
Ollie_ Anything you'd recommend?
greyhound Unlimited Power seems to have some good stuff on metaprograms
JonathanA Persuasion Engineering & Tony's books. ;) hah yes Grey
Dan_26 i'd love to explore another metaprogram :)
JonathanA cool!
Chunk Size!
JonathanA Well I was going to head into that but I kinda wanted to just talk in general about metaprograms.
greyhound thats like the size of the pieces of dog food?
JonathanA And how you can use them to pay attention to people's sorting mechanisms. Kinda like that. And its useful, and you can use it to influence people, etc. Good for sales, fun to play with. Y'know. All that stuff.
kay flirting?
JonathanA Lots of things, yeah. Chunk Size. Amount of detail. Yeah.
greyhound um, a General vs Surgeon
JonathanA Some people like big picture. Some people like lots of tiny details. Generally speaking.
Ollie_ Hey, I want specifics! How can I get the guy on the checkout at the supermarket to give me 10p off a dozen eggs?
JonathanA Read some of the NLP books, Ollie, you'll get lots of ideas
Ollie_ What, exactly, would I have to say to him?
Ollie_ Give me it word for word - exact tonalities as well
JonathanA A number of things could come to mind, after tonight, I'd guess
Dan_26 it depends a lot on him ollie and how you respond to him
JonathanA You might just say the right things at the right time. Things might just easily go more smoothly. Pay attention to the flow of your voice through the conversation
Dan_26 can we develop chunk size a little more general/detailed
kay more smoothly than what?
JonathanA anyhooooo I'll come down out of the clouds here for a bit... Did anyone here not get/understand/see what we were doing?
kay n
greyhound got it
JonathanA I was staying Big Chunk, and Ollie was getting more specific.
greyhound oh
JonathanA When this happens, two people have lots of trouble communicating. And this specifically happens ALL THE TIME in the real world, doesn't it?
kay y
greyhound I'm usually too specific for people
Dan_26 so this is related to milton/meta models (general/specific)?
JonathanA Ollie, nice pickup..... you got right into character! lol
greyhound most people
Dan_26 or can be paralleled at least
Ollie_ There was a "heated discussion" in another ng I read recently...
JonathanA IN YOUR PAST, grey... ;)
greyhound sigh
Ollie_ & one of the participants said of another:
JonathanA Yes, Dan absolutely. MetaModel is for getting more specific, for acquiring a deeper understanding of another person's DEEP structure.
Ollie_ "I can imagine saying to him, 'Nice weather, isn't it?', and he'd start quoting the meteorological data."
greyhound deep past?
Dan_26 lol olie
JonathanA Milton Model is for getting more general, and for feeding generalized responses, perhaps even for providing a new DEEP structure... (for the skilled or soon-to-be-more-skilled out there) ;)
JonathanA Hah! Great example Ollie!
kay kewl
JonathanA Note. MetaModel typically reduces/breaks rapport.....
Ollie_ I think I tend to ask people to be more specific if they're being rather vague...
kay or that one about ask him the time and he tells you how to make a watch
Ollie_ that's a meta-modelling thing I've picked up.
JonathanA Milton Model, used well, can increase rapport. Sometimes it can be annoying though, when not used with care or with grace.
Dan_26 how many of us learned that one the hard way? lol
JonathanA Sure. I did! LOL
greyhound it would have been annoying to me
JonathanA Damn -- we're really getting through a LOT tonight, aren't we? This is GREAT!
greyhound I did too!
JonathanA OK Recap - we defined MetaPrograms...
Dan_26 learning a lot, let's keep it rolling
JonathanA we talked about Chunk Size, Internal Reference vs. External, Rep Systems & Strategies...
greyhound what rolling?
JonathanA Constructed vs Remembered
Dan_26 did i miss that one?
kay the dog...
JonathanA brief answer to a question. Smelling things ;)
Dan_26 ok
greyhound sorry
JonathanA it was a cool example, greyhound!
greyhound I thought it stunk :)
kay lol
JonathanA Alrighty. I want to give credit for another cool one to a trainer that doesn't get a lot of credit in NLP.
Dan_26 so what do you think about it now? :)
greyhound ok, thanks
JonathanA There's one MetaProgram I see almost no material on anywhere else but in Ross Jeffries' material. And that one is "Trance Words."
greyhound uh oh
kay more more more
JonathanA People have trigger words that they value/place emphasis on... and if you pay close attention to those particular words... as you elicit important values from them...
Stygian I know some people say things and then repeat the last part of what the said, like "the fish was big, it was big"
JonathanA you can catalog them, store them away, and repeat them back to those other people within other contexts or with other words for other things. Right Styg! Sometimes they repeat them!
Stygian When I repeat to them "yeah, it was big" they trip out
JonathanA But just a lot of emphasis is enough. When you say Trip out, what do you mean, specifically? ;) Give us a sensory description of what occurs...
kay jonathan example? specific?
JonathanA well -- lets wait for styg for a sec
kay small chunk
Stygian they act like they are on drugs
JonathanA How, specifically? Use your memory of what you observed!
Stygian they just act wierd, like you know how a 3volt wird would act if you ran 100 volts through it, that's how their brain acts
JonathanA Stygian wants to stay big chunk ;)
Ollie_ They're kind of like anchors, yes?
JonathanA The kinds of answers that are *really helpful* to this kind of Question is... "their breathing suddenly quickened... their pupils dilated... their posture shifted a lot, they opened their mouth wider, etc. Sensory specific descriptions!
Stygian When I am around people who do that all the time, it gets irritating
JonathanA can do a LOT for getting people to pay closer attention to how the use of NLP is being effective or otherwise. Unless you have a clear feedback loop, it doesn't work as well!
Dan_26 back to the metamodel breaking rapport
JonathanA irritating to you, perhaps, but people here learn more from this when you provide sensory rich descriptions. Just offering the counter response, Styg. Not trying to break rapport or be annoying. Yes Dan -- fire away
Stygian I was talking about it is irritating when people repeat the last part of what they say. Sensory rich descriptions, I like
JonathanA oh! My error! My apologies, of course! Nature of the IRC lag, I guess... Folks, I'm going to run out of steam here in about 15 minutes personally, and you can certainly continue on your own, but I thought I should just let folks know I'm getting towards closure for the evening (soon, not now)! Dan? MetaModel & Rapport? What did you want to pursue?
kallee trance word have the assumption that something is so.... they are commonly imperitives (notice , aware, etc) sooo you create the accuracy of the assumption from the subconscious.
Dan_26 nothing there, i was misinterpreting Sty's statement also. ;)
greyhound doesn't the metamodel use breaking rapport depend on what you ask questions about? and, possibly, what representational system that thing is in?
Dan_26 everything is always context dependent, i agree grey
JonathanA kallee can you elaborate a little? Not sure I understood what you were getting at. Yes greyhound, and yet, with the metamodel you force people to break off contact with YOU, and go inside their minds to search their memories, and do what we call a TDS (TransDerivational Search). Any TDS causes an Internal frame shift, which focuses them away from you! Ergo, Rapport is broken.
greyhound but you can still sort of follow them in, no?
JonathanA It doesn't mean you both don't synch up again once they come out of the tds instantly, it just means, rapport is broken.
greyhound hrmmnn
kallee a trance word assumes...(as you're NOTICING) the person will begin to notice -- in agreement with your suggestion but if used properly from the inside
JonathanA Yes you CAN still follow them in... but thats more for the person asking the metamodel questions to stay in rapport with the person having all the TDS'es! (I think). I mean, thats my perspective/opinion on it. If you think/feel differently -- PLEASE share it with the group!
Ollie_ kallee, I don't know offhand the terminology Ross uses, but I don't think that's what Jonathan means by trance words
JonathanA I'm interested if you experience it differently!
kallee i am just not expressing myself very elegantly
JonathanA yes it is Ollie -- I know Kallee personally so I think we're on the same page ;) but I could be mind-reading too {big grin}! Its about causing an internal reaction on their part that responds to the use of a word which means SO much to them! Am I on target, kallee, with where you were headed?
Ollie_ Oh, sorry - what kallee was describing sounded more like a particular language pattern
greyhound I think the metamodel can be used externally too
JonathanA welcome eyl & Questor_, we're close to done but not done yet ;)
kallee the assumption of a trance word is the thought that comes from another awareness
greyhound I mean, sort of think about how detailed baseball announcers can be
Dan_26 so trance words appear to be related to the milton model, and can be used for rapport and to lead into a state associated with that word
JonathanA ahhhhh yes, now I get it!
Questor_ kewl
eyl thanks
JonathanA YES, Dan!
kallee the other awareness ( the subconscious) seeks to create agreement
greyhound trance words are words that have large associations with them? as opposed to words that dont?
JonathanA I'd agree with you on that, greyhound.
kallee grey: internal associations
JonathanA yup!
Ollie_ We haven't had an example of a trance word (you can have trance phrases as well)
greyhound ok
Stygian I think people tend to speak with a general set of vocabulary they use
greyhound so they are like anchors for internal states, that may have been set up somewhere else. or, anchors to past experiences
JonathanA Hard to get an example over IRC. Listening for them is such an AUDITORY THING.
kallee grey: right on
JonathanA Ross uses them in eliciting values. And if he's describing talking to a woman and getting her values,
greyhound um, you could, if you had enough rapport, and followed the representational system, use the metamodel to find out more about what the trance word elicits
JonathanA if she says, well I like someone who's HONEST. And he has to have a NICE CAR. Because I want him to be AMBITIOUS. Trance words in caps.
kallee a commony used word anchor eg,find yourself, as if, notice etc.
JonathanA You're listening for the emphasis.
greyhound Its like when you have an idea you want to describe, and someone helps you to express that idea, it actually makes you feel closer to that person.
JonathanA yes! Kay, how would YOU use the above? ;)
kallee are you talking trance words of criteria?
JonathanA Can be criteria...
kallee i mean or
JonathanA doesn't have to be.
kay use how?
greyhound I'm talking about trance words and the milton model both :)
Dan_26 when someone brings into the conscious that which you feel/see/hear unconsciously, now THERE'S a connection! :)
kay specifically?
JonathanA What circumstances could you imagine yourself using the process of paying attention to someone else's Trance Words, and feeding them back to those individuals to gain deeper levels of understanding.
Ollie_ Jonathan, I think kay wants you to reduce your chunk size ;)
kay Oh. gotcha.
kallee your PROBABLY beginning to NOTICE... am i on the right page here?
greyhound well, don't bring into consciousness things that they arent ready for, or theres a good way to break rapport :)
Stygian begging to notice...hmmm..I like that phrase
Ollie_ kallee, I think you're talking about patterns that you would use - I mean the same words - with anyone
JonathanA Thats absolutely true greyhound
kay refer to myself as HONEST. and he's not... like "its tough to be HONEST, in this world, but when you are
Ollie_ (I may be mind reading here, though)
Dan_26 i should have said bring into consciousness things they are trying to but can't because of this funny language thing we have here
kay you and you know youre being HONEST, it makes it all worthwhile...
greyhound sometimes they are things that they wish to keep secret to you, not themselves
JonathanA cool...
greyhound ever been in front of a judge
kay because if your HONEST, and AMBITIOUS... like me, you uh uh... end up driving a nice car?
greyhound one that makes you feel cute?
kay he he
greyhound now, does the seat position make you feel cute?
Ollie_ So, jonathan, has this been a COOL discussion?
kallee for example, You're probably WONDERING minvites them to go inside. WHAT ? WAS I WONDERING?
kay only if it puts me higher than any body....
JonathanA hahhhah! It's been really KEWL!
greyhound then, you want a truck
kallee I mean invites
kay hahhahah?
JonathanA LOL!
kay yeah, or a uh... sports utility... jonathan what are you LOLing at?
greyhound hrmmnnn
Dan_26 next topic request: Metaprograms II :) lol
JonathanA I'm LOL'ing at everyone using each others COOL Trance words - including mine...
kay KEWL.. and COOL!
greyhound heh
JonathanA OK folks....
Stygian Have you ever said LOL to someone in person when they said something funny? ;)
kay the corners of my eyes are sprouting tears from smiling so hard...
JonathanA Yes Styg... you know you're a nerd when you start an answer with "IMHO"
greyhound actually, i almost did that! now I don't type LOL anymore, I just type heh, or haha, or :)
Dan_26 we could have an interesting discussion on the differences between "trance words" and "non-trance words"
Stygian IMHO sounds like "I'm a ho"
kay A chicago ho?
JonathanA THANK YOU ALL for coming tonight... we kept it short and sweet! Done in under 2 hours? Not bad folks...
Stygian b'bye
kay its all your fault
kallee bye thanks
greyhound wow, I'm a good dog! thanks for the topic :)
JonathanA I'm going to be AWAY FROM KEYBOARD but I'll probably stick around for another hour (back in 20 minutes or so!)
Dan_26 another awesome one, thanks jonathan and everyone else!
JonathanA Thank you ALL -- this may have been the best one yet!
glen_ster thanks Jonathan Eh!
JonathanA One LAST THING....
Ollie_ See you next time, I hope. Thanks Jonathan.
Dan_26 they keep getting better and better
kay I can't help being hyper... I'm going to take a training!!
Ollie_ Yes?
Stygian ...thanks JonathanA
JonathanA If anyone wants their name removed from the chat log before it goes onto the site -- lemme know now please! (you're welcome everyone -- and thank each other too -- you were all so helpful to each other tonight!)
glen_ster you can use mine at your desire
Ollie_ No problem with you keeping my name in.
JonathanA OK -- away from keyboard... see you on the net!
greyhound I don't even have a name
JonathanA is away...
Ollie_ Ooh, look - he rhymes!
IRC CHAT OVER!

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