Chat Log: Sleight of Mouth

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Sleight of Mouth
IRC Chat Log, January 7, 1998

Sleight of Mouth
Jonathan People keep coming in from around the globe... Dilts is the primary resource we have on "Sleight of Mouth" -- He has a set of Videos on the subject which you may still be able to get through the Southern Institute.
JoelP Dan: Robert Dilts has a 4-video set on Sleight of Mouth that is really good... also, someone has just written a book called 'Mind Lines' that repackages and expands sleight of mouth patterns
PhilAlex Dave barron has a book on it...
misjief a great book- with exercises
JoelP Dan: Mind Lines is by Michael Hall, info is at http://www.neurosemantics.com.
Jonathan Dave Barron's exercise book is supposed to be good -- I haven't seen it yet -- but I've heard good things from multiple sources. Basically a concise rehash of whats out there, oriented towards real-life practice and use. Barron doesn't think of it as innovative material, though his presentation of it IS!
Dan_25 excellent, thank you (begin when ready, just making applicable small talk in the meant time)
JoelP where is Barron's book avaialable?
Jonathan dbarron@primenet.com
JoelP Stygian already posed the question, 'What is Sleight of Mouth'
Stygian What is "Sleight of hand"? I remember hearing it somewhere
JoelP sleight of hand comes from magic, close up magic & illusions with cards, coins, etc. Sleight of Mouth patterns are a coding of what Robert Dilts observed Richard Bandler doing naturally in conversation
Jonathan Magicians use Sleight of Hand to distract you from what they're really doing... Lets get it rockin in here... What I want to propose to everyone is that we keep our sights aimed low and go way higher! Lets not expect to gracefully get through every pattern... Lets choose just a few, and hash em out really well! So that everyone leaves with some really useful stuff about those particular patterns. Anyone can get Barron's book or the videos to get a full list. We don't need that here!
Dan_25 rather do several very well than all of them superficially. . .
Jonathan Cool! OK. {lots of yes answers omitted} The intent of Sleight of Mouth, basically, is to use concise language patterns and intelligence to adjust the thinking of other people. Right? Others? As you understand them? (granted I don't give all the answers out -- I want people jumping IN!!!)
misjief percision
JoelP to break up, reinforce, or reshuffle generalizations
PlayR to manipulate them to do my bidding...
JoelP that depends on your intent, PlayR
misjief I prefer entice rather the manipulate
Dan_25 agreed, use of language to adjust the structure of a thought process (often abruptly?)
Jonathan PlayR we need to have a talk ;) lol
PlayR ;) lol
JoelP the basic premise is that words set frames around our experience and shape reality... sleight of mouth redefines and reshapes those reali-tease
Jonathan What about.... to open up belief systems?
misjief Open up unforeseen possibilities
Jonathan What about... to have another method for identifying and adjusting another's deep structure... (another method than the Meta-Model, for example) Note that the Meta-Model is not for adjusting -- it's primarily for identifying
Dan_25 reality. . . hmmm. . how about world models? :)
Jonathan Like 12" globes that spin, Dan?
Phoenix I think its how to never lose an argument.
Dan_25 more than reality, why yes I do! lol
Jonathan Like, context reframing like the last comment?
misjief Phoenix- how about win - win! An even playing field
Phoenix that assumes alot. I am commenting on Why RB did, does, and will continue too
misjief RB?
Jonathan RB= Bandler
Phoenix I use them to keep my sanity which ever ones I find useful
Jonathan Phoenix, when you say that assumes a lot... can you clarify... point out what it assumed for the group ;)
Phoenix the win-win. Some people think that a win-win situation exists. I think that is a frame or reality that is percieved but doesnt exist. I'll type slower.
Dan_25 i think everything is a frame or reality that is perceived but doesn't exist. . .
Jonathan Its a nice ideal, isn't it? (Jonathan is playing now)
Phoenix I agree with dan
misjief Win-Win there is power and then there is percieved power
Jonathan ahhhhh now we're down to "everything I say is a lie"
treflurks willonly do w-in-win situations in bizness... i must be crazy...
misjief I can win and then step down a notch
Dan_25 OR :everything I say is truth"
Jonathan Which is a basic presup from which to begin to accept that we can't TOTALLY know another person's deep structure... or more to the point... we don't NEED to TOTALLY know another person's deep structure.
Phoenix I personally believe in a more generative than win-win, such as improve-improve
Jonathan COOOOL Phoenix!
Dan_25 I believe it's "everything thing I say is relative to my perceptions", at least that's relative to my perceptions :)
Phoenix win-win is results I feeel and think direction IE: processes and processes of improvemt. lopp-de-loop-de-loop
Jonathan ok...
PhilAlex Win win, or Improve Improve is good, but some people don't have a WIN unless you LOSE.
Jonathan ooooh, OK lets take an example of that Phil. Create a scenario of that, would you? As complete as you can from memory... PhilAlex
Phoenix is more inline with the processes vs diagnostics
misjief Dan- and perhaps more importantly - your listener's perceptions
Dan_25 ah, it's an either/or situation. . . either i win or i lose
PlayR is that necessarly true Dan?
Dan_25 agreed misjief
Jonathan Folks lets deal with an example that we can bring in some sleight of mouth to.
Dan_25 no, not at all, just continuing the thought posed by PhilAlex
PlayR oh, I see..
Dan_25 plenty of opportunity posed thus far, please continue Jonathan
PhilAlex Well, some people's model of dealing is that if you don't lose, or appear to, they can STILL cut a better deal...
Jonathan Right.
misjief I agree with that in the sense that you have to "talented" enough to always beat the bully...... Then you can win quickly and then step back in-line with him
Round 1: What Comes First
Jonathan OK lets get specific. PlayR comes in to JoelP's car dealership to trade in his car.
PlayR kewl..
Jonathan PlayR sees the new car he wants and wants to pay as little as he can for it, while getting the most off his previous car. JoelP wants to sell the new car for as high as he can, and pay as little as he reasonably can for the old car.
PlayR Yea!
JoelP, PlayR *nods*
Jonathan OK. Big dilemma.
PlayR seemingly... wasn't it?
Jonathan We have a toward and an away-from motivation, from each person, for each of the 2 parts of the bargain. And ALL of them conflict. Do they not?
PlayR seemingly...
Jonathan Can anyone notice ways in which their goals do not conflict?
PlayR perhaps Joel wants a satisfied customer who will bring him more biz... so he can make EVEN more money! in the long run... or not.
`Odin` Larry Elison's (of Oracle) business strategy is "It's not good enough that I win, someone must lose"
Jonathan Thats why I don't usually recommend Oracle. Next ;) LOL Odin
JoelP *laughing*
PlayR that's a short term vision
JoelP and a game-oriented metaphor
Jonathan OK JoelP -- can you notice ways in which PlayR might want something that meets with "your" outcomes (Hi new arrivals we're in the middle of some examples -- )
PlayR I MIGHT be willing to pay more if I felt I was getting something of value.. if Joel was providing other value than just the car.. that could be lots of other things...
JoelP maybe he wouldn't want to rake me over the coals in case I had sweeter deals on other cars in the future
Jonathan AHHAH!
PlayR service
Jonathan OK. So Stop for a second.
PlayR If he provided greater service.. I'd pay for that..
Jonathan Before we have ANY clue how to use Sleight of Mouth... what are we doing? What is this process we're exploring?
misjief reframe
PlayR 2nd position.
treflurks negotiation
Tiger_ elaborate
JoelP *nods*. And positive intentions -- all very closely related
Jonathan Considering every position possible
PlayR 2nd AND 3rd position?
Jonathan looking at all the angles, looking for ways to adjust the other persons thinking or... even more powerful... use their own potential motivations to help us all win... And we're back to the potential win-win hallucination
PlayR hallucination? or goal..
misjief I like that
Jonathan Well, all this is a lie, right? ;)
JoelP what's the difference? :)
Jonathan The difference between me? OK. Someone used "reframe"
JoelP hehehehe no the difference between the carpet
misjief Cause in reality unless to fair refs meet someone has to win
Jonathan MAN that's an overused word. But accurate, perhaps...! Reframe is just to adjust the context... in the way you used it...
misjief What would you suggest in the future?
Jonathan I only suggest a clearer understanding of what reframing is all about.
PlayR continue to sleight of mouth..
Jonathan See there are basically 2 forms of it. And it IS useful to understand reframing for Sleight of Mouth... very useful indeed.... so you can know where Sleight of Mouth goes beyond reframing.
PlayR Context or Content?
JoelP PlayR: yes
Jonathan Richard years ago once said reframing was really limited by itself... and that he found something which was MUCH better... he called it... (correct PlayR those are the two). He called it REBLAMING.
Dan_25 :)
PlayR that doesnt sound useful...
Jonathan Which is like, you find some random person on the street, you blame them for all your troubles, yell at em a little bit and you feel MUCH better, and its a lot faster too.
PlayR ahhh...
treflurks i trust RB
PlayR always? in everything? hmmm...
treflurks PlayR: In general
Jonathan On the other hand, if ecology is something you're after... NOOOOWOWWWWWW... as a built in process instead of something you have to check with by staring at the slight twitch of the eyebrow and going "ooooh lets see the color change of the nostril; gee, what does that mean?" Then you don't have to blame anyone and you don't have to yell at anyone, and you automatically keep in mind that people have a right to be themselves and you don't want to take away their options, you just wanna CREATE MORE.
PlayR oh.. me too... ;)
Jonathan CREATE MORE. So. I'm backing off for a few minutes.... to allow the group to explore ways of doing 2 things.
(1) Get Joel to give the deal to PlayR on PlayR's terms.
(2) Get PlayR to give the deal to Joel on Joel's terms.
You have your assignments. Change the context. Do time distortion. Find what beliefs are involved. work as a GROUP! GO TO IT! Exercise.... begin!
JoelP that's the essence of being generative, 'creating more'
PlayR how does this relate to sleight of mouth?
treflurks ummm...meet halfway?
PlayR Context... think of different situations in which this could be beneficial..
JoelP create a new frame or context in which the most important criteria of both people can be met
PlayR for both. What does this mean in a different context?
Jonathan Nahhn nahhh nahhhh, get specific, people, you're still theoretical!!! You have a car deal to make happen! Make it happen!
Jonathan Forget the middle ground... this is about using Sleight of Mouth to convince the other guy to go your way.
PlayR Perhaps if I got a good deal that would mean I would come back to him for my next car... I could imply future transactions..?
misjief Okay- lets pick a side and go with it
Jonathan Assignment (1) first.
PlayR He could become my defacto car salesman.. refer all my friends... IF I get a good deal..
Jonathan Joel should resist, but everyone should pretend to be PlayR and convince Joel to do the deal PlayRs way
misjief - first lets find out what the dealer wants- then find a way to match it or beat it
PlayR He might loose 200 on THIS deal... BUT he could make it up on my referrals... the idea is to REFRAME, contextually... so think of a different context in which his giving us a good deal would be beneficial for HIM, like a future deal, or a deal with some of my friends
JoelP PlayR, the real issue isn't whether I come out ahead on the deal, but whether you are satisfied enough over time to send me referrals
PlayR True... I have to get you to agree though.
JoelP no you don't :)
PlayR If you dont then there is no deal. You lose the sale.
JoelP sure there is!
SIGABRT Its not realistic to lose money on the hope you will get more business. period.
Dan_25 but if you get more referrals, won't you come out ahead on the deal in the long run?
JoelP sorry, just disagreeing with you
PlayR Is it realistic to loose money to make money? Isnt that what INVESTMENT is?
SIGABRT Not when it hinges on an IF. Investing is RISK, not LOSS
PlayR arent you investing in the other person and his continued goodwill ?
Jonathan (lurk mode off) What about providing a SINGLE & POWERFUL counter-example to his belief that he has to make money on this deal? (lurk mode on again)
Dan_25 SIG, is going in debt to start a new business losing money? has a negative money, yet we'd have few businesses without that. . .
PlayR IF he made no money on the deal, but made the sale.. his quota for the month would look better.
misjief Okay- let do the math (figuretively) so that we know what he needs to make to earn a fair living and also so we know when he is cheating us
JoelP it's realistic to lose money SHORT TERM to make more in the long term
SIGABRT Not necessarily... you dont lose money.. you buy stuff with it... lose = gone & get nothing
PlayR Right Joel... RIght SIG! Invest! It's an investment...
misjief if you know the bluebook value the dealer has to make 8% to break even
treflurks How often do you think PlayR buys a car, every two years? and how much do you make on a car? Is a life time of car margins better than a high tag on this one?
Phoenix hmmm are we still talking about slieght of mouth
PlayR Im wondering that also..
Jonathan Yes & NO... thanks for the structure...
Dan_25 if you don't make this sale, your profit is $0. . . what's better, no money or some money?
PlayR How does SOM relate?
Jonathan This is a group exploration. How are *you* using SOM to convince Joel?
SIGABRT This all assumes that Joel will be able to make money in the future. Losing money sets a precedent
Jonathan You don't need to know SOM explicitly to reframe ideas... but we can add to the pot here.
misjief if you don't know what he has to make on his side of the line - how do you know if you being fair and more importantly that you are not being taken
treflurks "Are you going to be in business, for a few years, and sell me several cars? Or are you planning on getting the most you can for this car, and going out of business next year?
Jonathan What about finding out the logical levels that Joel's statements have been at... and flying up or down in the logical level heirarchy?
PlayR I would say: Joel, Im not sure just what it is you do when you go inside and convince yourself that you really want to DO THIS DEAL.. but as you imagine all the FUTURE deals you will have and see all the money you WILL Make as a result of having provided good deals now wont you be glad you did? didnt you? ;)
Jonathan Those are good language patterns, PlayR... and using presuppositions and embedded commands are all good.... Guys (& Gals if we have female participants) Joel's comments have been very specifically located at two levels.
Dan_25 I can understand how not considering all the benefits from selling this car to me at a fair price could lead you to not wanting to do it now
Jonathan When he speaks of others, he's speaking about their feelings (which is often placed at the identity level), When he speaks of himself, he's speaking mostly about the environment. If you're going to get him to change easily... what if you met him in his own understanding about these levels... and flipped the program on him, made a suggestion that isn't far from his own beliefs... then jumped back to the original combo?
Phoenix hey, PlayR buy the car or you have no sexual future
PlayR lol Pheonix -- Jonathan, could you reiterate WHICH statement he made in that regard? I cant find it...
Phoenix good humor lets stat there
Jonathan hehehheh!!!!
PlayR ice cream?
misjief I think the art of slight of mought- is the ability to see and play both sides of the line like playing checkers against yourself..... it is almost always a close game
Jonathan ALLRIGHT! Joel wrote: "PlayR, the real issue isn't whether I come out ahead on the deal, but whether you are satisfied enough over time to send me referrals
PlayR right
Jonathan What if PlayR said (giving the example here) in response, I see your point about my satisfaction and how you do on the deal. What about your own satisfaction for having let another good customer complete a deal that they can actually afford, knowing perhaps that they might go out and offer their friends a recommendation for you and your integrity? I reversed logical levels in that example. Joel has to play 2nd position to understand the remark. (practicallly anyway)
Dan_25 ahhhh
JoelP very true
PlayR so we are getting him to see our point of view, right? Using SOM..
Jonathan YES! Or come closer, anyway.
JoelP I was simply playing with some patterns
PlayR kewl...
Jonathan How close would a comment like the above have worked for you, JoelP, if you were the dealer? Or at least, tilted the scales in PlayR's direction?
JoelP it would have worked great
Jonathan k. Listen up people... and think about it differently. It's not the language pattern you pick to do your reframing. That's ICING. Pay attention to the DEEP structure you're hearing. The keys to the kingdom are RIGHT THERE in front of you if you pay attention more closely... think faster... and talk slower...
JoelP it's the perception that generates the language that really counts
Jonathan YES JOEL!
JoelP each sleight pattern comes from askign questions like, 'what is the other person not noticing or paying attention to in this context'?
Jonathan For me to make SOM work... I have to understand how you understand. Just using language patterns to embed commands... and future pace... works for &(#*$ -- if I haven't taken the time & energy to understand the deep structure. Make sense people?
PlayR their deep structure is missing some things..
Dan_25 are you implying that the other person isn't noticing or paying attention to their own deep structure then Jonathan?
PlayR You mean future pacing does NOT work unless you understand deep structure... right?
Jonathan Not anywhere NEAR as well as it would when you've taken the time to learn HOW to adjust their deep structure, then future pace the adjustment!
PlayR How might one future pace this example... or is it already? {Editor's comment -- it was already future-paced.}
Phoenix want to qualify deep structure
Jonathan I imply that very few people know their deep structure, Dan! Here's the simple answer. Surface Structure's what you hear. Deep Structure's what you don't. ;)
Dan_25 ok ,just making sure i follow consciously :)
PlayR think faster, talk slower... I like that..
Jonathan ALL the other person's perceptions. All their understandings. All their kino inconsistencies and misunderstandings... it all plays a role and most people have very little understanding of their own deep structure.
PlayR UNLESS they are DEEP...
Dan_25 so understanding deep structure, you'd say, is much more important than simply running through various SOM patterns to find the one that works best?
Jonathan Definitely! You rarely have time to cycle thru a list... when you really need it all to work right!
JoelP maybe a good understanding of BOTH is important
grazzhppr fwiw - there were several posts on usenet - alt.psychology.nlp - recently on SOM techniques. Anyone interested can search dejanews on the subject: Sleight of Mouth Patterns and you should pick up the articles
Questor_ Are there any books that discuss SOM?
Dan_25 Questor: Robert Dilts 4 vid-tapes on Sleight of Mouth/Southern Institute, Mind Lines by Michael Hall (www.neurosemantics.com), Dave Barron dbarron@primenet.com (text)
grazzhppr david barron has a workbook on it and I think maybe Dilts disusses it
Jonathan the Reese's at the Southern Institute sold me my SOM videos.
JoelP same here
Jonathan Good stuff. A little dry, but also elegant.
Phoenix Dilts slieght of mouth is great for patterns not for congruety
grazzhppr phoenix - why?
Phoenix watch them with sound off and then sound on you'll notice it. Everyone I've showed to esp. not nlp poeple go HUH
JoelP Dilts is definitely more of an intellectual than an entertainer, but Phoenix is 100% right, the patterns are great
Jonathan I hear a lot of people say Dilts' material is dry. Let me comment on that. I agree its more dry than the showmanship of Bandler, LaValle, etc... I watched those videos before attending a Prac & Master Track. And I fell asleep. I thought, watch Bandler, watch Dilts. No comparison (this is my opinion before the 1st two major trainings). But then, I came back after those trainings... and then... I thought... this guy is ELEGANT...
Phoenix verbal yes, body language no.
Jonathan I mean, he is REALLY subtle... a very gifted multi-channel communicator, and I guess he just likes to be that subtle. I agree with you completely, Phoenix. SO, Lets move on shall we?
Phoenix now onto the MEAT!
grazzhppr & potatoes
Jonathan THERE THE MAN HIMSELF is... Dave Barron... the author of the SOM workbook.... better get your pen Dave... people are prolly gonna order a few copies...
Dan_25 dave, you're going to sell a lot of books tonight - lol
Jonathan You can send me a couple as thanks ;) LOL - OK folks! If you want to order any of Dave's workbooks, ask him over private chat rather than in channel, or wait until the chat's over. COOL? Moving on in topic....
dbarron WHat you YOU want... :-) Great! I am glad you like them. Email me dbarron@primenet.com
Tosha1 dbarron: how is your book better than "The Advanced Language Patterns" by McLaughlin?
dbarron just more example....more exersices...
Jonathan Take it offline or wait until we're done, please
Tosha1 sorry
Jonathan s'ok! Lets just keep the channel clear for open discussion. personally I hope Dave sells a bunch, but the channel is not for sales. {During a scheduled chat, anyway!}
Round 1: Belief Adjustments
Jonathan This is SOM too... in case anyone's wondering. I just think these tricks are really kewl! I like to find out where people's responses are coming from. Generally their statements or behaviors are context dependent...
Phoenix LIKE "this doesnt suck"
Jonathan ;) yes! And if a content or context reframe (or outframe) doesn't work, or if I'm feeling up to a different approach, now. If I want to make a very powerful adjustment using SOM, one way is to find out what that behavior or choice or decision is dependent on, and then, what that in turn is dependent on. If you can find a simple way to use SOM on one of the PRE-CURSORS to what you're listening to... you can topple all the dominoes that lead up to their present issue!!! And sometimes you can set it up to be as simple as telling them the time of day. Does this make sense conceptually?
dbarron you bet!
Jonathan Someone needs to give me an example of a simple problem they have -- a real one.
bro_p having difficult motivating myself to exercise
dbarron I am a bit afraid of quitting my job. Real enough?
PlayR I cant get motivated to work out either.. especially morning runs..
Jonathan Lets use Dave's. This is cool.
Phoenix i loose my...uh...my... focus, yeah that's it
PlayR where is that prop system I had. on fridge door?
Jonathan let em rip folks, lets see what the best one is then
Dan_25 i need to make more money so i can attend more nlp trainings
grazzhppr ... i'm waiting on a raise & if it's not enough I'll be quiting - but I want to give em a chance to up the $ ... something like "that was a very generous offer but...."
Jonathan Folks, before we get into this... Dave Barron has to leave in a few {editor's comment: I knew through a private chat}. So as a last recommendation, email him at dbarron@primenet.com
dbarron thank you
Dan_25 already did :)
Dan_25 so did we decide on one Jonathan?
Jonathan Kewl. Alright, getting down to it... Lets use YOURS Dan, making more money to attend more NLP Trainings, because I dealt with this one when I was acquiring trainings myself.
Dan_25 it could be mutually beneficial, after all :) ok. . .
Jonathan Alright. So in order to attend NLP trainings, you need to make more money? Hmmmm
StefanL That's a complex equivalence, right?
Dan_25 in order to attend MORE nlp trainings, i need to make MORE money, yes
Phoenix sharon says: SO DO I
Jonathan complex equivalence is different...: earning more money = attending more trainings ;)
JoelP it's a cause-effect
Dan_25 in order to do x, i need to do y
Jonathan Some trainers offer payment plans, so you wouldn't have to come up with it all at once. (i.e. remove the need for everything up front, change the implication of attending). Right?
Phoenix but not some trianers who train for other trainers
Jonathan LOL, Phoenix ;)
Dan_25 agreed. . . should i counter that?
Jonathan GO FOR IT! This is the meat & potatoes!
`Odin` Can I have rice instead?
StefanL Ok, and attending more trainings requires more money isn't really implied then
Jonathan We spent a lot of time explaining the art of approaching the use of SOM. right... StefanL. Dan? Countering?
Dan_25 well, not necessarily a counter, BUT realizing that and following that action, i am still limited on the number of trainings i can take at this point in a given year because. . . i need to eat
Jonathan of course. Lets change the meaning of that belief. (from an external perspective). DO you think that attending a training would give you skills to earn more money faster, or to be more congruent in your present position which could allow you to achieve a promotion faster or work more effectively?
JoelP Dan: is it that you need to make more money, or that you need to expand the value you have to offer others?
Dan_25 that is among my beliefs Jonathan. . but I am viewing this thought at this particular point in time
Jonathan So it stands to reason, as you imagine having taken a training and begun to use your skill to acquire additional revenues or attract more business, that you could easily have the training pay for itself, could you not? You could, couldn't you?
Dan_25 JoelP: yes, part of the reason I'm exploring NLP. . . Jonathan, i'm in education so my salary is set (within my current job)
Jonathan Sure, Dan, I understand. Most teachers who want to get ahead don't do things on the side, do they?
Dan_25 that is certainly a possibility
Jonathan Ahhh, STOP! we've changed CAN'T to CAN. The modal operator of Possibility is now opened up for us. Everyone review how that was done.
kallee in what way is needing more money for NLP inviting you to EFFICTIVELY apply your (allready exsisting ) NLP skills to create what you need for yourself?
JoelP kallee: very good!
Jonathan Very kewl kallee!!!
Jonathan ;) - kallee is a Master Prac too Joel ;)
JoelP but of course! :)
Dan_25 hmm. . . but FUTURE possibility, following the trainings, or is that the point? :)
Jonathan Absolutely Dan. Time means little to someone using SOM. ;) {big grin}
Phoenix How about "What USED to stop you know more"
Dan_25 ok, then you had won, we had won, before we even started.. . . NEXT!
Jonathan LOL Phoenix this chat is getting GOOD!!! Sure. The way I would have gone, had we continued ;) would be to take CAN to MIGHT, then MIGHT to PROBABLY WILL, then PROBABLY WILL to *** GOTTA HAVE IT *** !!! I can use SOM much more gracefully if I look quietly at small incremental state or belief adjustments.
Phoenix and Know more about How you can , now, apply all that you learn in more ways than you , have imagined.
Dan_25 ok, group hug, thanks guys :)
Jonathan So let me know when you want the Prac Registration packet faxed to you ;) LOL. JUST kidding. Someone else? Lets choose something different.
dmax Can I comment on what just happened?
Jonathan Sure. {Pausing} and we may break soon, too, it is getting late (for people's patience here on IRC, anyway)
dmax When you asked for a problem, you set it up so that you would both share an outcome. Doesn't that make it easier?
Jonathan Not really. Because we ALWAYS both share an outcome. I just might have to keep chunking up until we find the shared outcome...
dmax okay
Phoenix lets switch outcome to direction since nothing is a static
Jonathan does that make sense or do you want to propose a more diffucult example and we'll just breeze through the chunk-up process? OK Phoenix, I like your style... direction it is... the shared direction
Dan_25 i'm also very open to allow myself to consider possibilities and pursue them. OK, someone obnoxious throw out a problem -- lol
Jonathan Sure... and that made it easier more than the shared direction (Obnoxious? LOL)
Dan_25 or not
Beginning to Summarize
Jonathan Well I think its getting kind of late, and I want to have time.... to let everyone in the group know (again) -those who didn't yet know... that instead of listing each pattern, which is a VERY DRY academic approach... I wanted to "install" in those folks who didn't know a lot about SOM... an understanding of the INTENT behind it, and the thinking that goes on before you even begin to USE SOM with people! I hope we've been successful providing some examples of the use of SOM and the logic behind several examples. Anyone who wants an academic listing and such, do contact David Barron, or get the videos from the Southern Institute, (let em know I sent-ya!), or, attend a training. You get most of them these days in a good Prac training, and they definitely take more than 90-120 minutes to master and get them installed in your speaking behavior! But they're not hard to learn, and they're FUN to use with each other! Half the fun of a training is using language patterns on each other!
glen_ster thanks for taking the time to educate us Jonathan!!!!!
JoelP you get to have 'Frame Wars' with your friends :)
Jonathan LOL Joel "how Pithy"!
Phoenix i dont believe it
Jonathan And don't do any of that re-blaming stuff
Dan_25 learned a lot, had a lot to learn. . . can i request a future discussion topic to extend/complement this one?
Jonathan You betcha -- we've been discussing it offline the last hour or so ;) big grin
StefanL But treading lightly, so you don't turn into a "meta monster"
Dan_25 metaprograms! can this be practically discussed in this forum?
Jonathan sure!
dmax Can someone give a url for the Southern Institute?
bro_p can get the link from jonathan's site... dmax, check out: http://www.altfeld.com/mastery/nlplinks.html
Jonathan hehheh thanks broP -- I *do* have their link there thats true. You'll find the Southern Institute's site linked on that page
dmax thanks again
bro_p kewl
Jonathan Actually Dan, I have an old log of a metaprograms chat here that I have to get online. It was a flirting & metaprograms chat. I didn't put it up earlier b/c most or all the attendees are from a different mailing list. I'll sanitize the names or something to put it up on the website.
Dan_25 let me know when it's up, my conscious metaprogram and SoM could use a boost :)
Jonathan Listen folks... we're closing up shop here... but if any of you have ANY questions about advanced NLP & DHE topics... PHOENIX MORGAN is the man to ask... I'm lucky enough to get him to come down to Tampa in April to co-train a Practitioner course with me! So fire away while you have him here!!! Phoenix? will you take a few?
Phoenix really...lets get him on here! Sure always willing to learn.
Jonathan Phoenix's been training with Richard for YEARS, and is generally recognized at trainings (recognized as TALL) as having more training than most of the other trainers and participants there. I'm telling you... if you miss this opportunity to ask a longterm expert AND Richard buff... you don't know what you're missing folks!
Dan_25 phoenix, curiously, what has been the most powerful technique(s) you have learned? is there 1-2-3 you can pinpoint? meta-modeling?
Phoenix And I thought my size 13's were too big already! What was discussed here is really the fundamental ATTITUDE "Flexibility". There is meta-pattern to how SOM was created and you can create MORE! RB created SOM by using the pattern of... "Never do what works twice...
Jonathan (folks, Dilts formalized it, he didn't create it)
Phoenix Do something different EVERYTIME...
bro_p why
Dan_25 ah. . . just to find a variety of what yields the outcome of what you desire?
Phoenix ...because if what you do next doesnt get the results you want... ...you go back to where you did get the direction you desired and do something ANYTHING DIFFERENT. Over a period of time TRACKING what works & what doesnt & then organized into catagories by dilts is how we get SOM's! There is a HUGE amount of the bases of NLP and it's creation and continuing innovation. Think about applying the strategy in a field you had a challenge with. ?'s ?
Dan_25 and the most productive way of discoverying a variety of approaches to what works/doesn't work is perhaps a training?
Phoenix hmmm, depends on alot. But if the trainings Jonathan's, definitely. :)
Jonathan ;) thanks to Phoenix for the compliment
Getting Silly
Dan_25 look at that PLUG in the wall. oops, where were we?
Phoenix well, we are OUTLETting new ideas of ELECTRIC thought
JoelP we have to keep CURRENT though
Jonathan Or you could look at that PLUG in reverse and GULP it all down completely ahhhhhh tasty
JoelP unless one of us is AC-DC
Dan_25 or we'll be ZAPPED by the curse of the past
Phoenix hmmm, the net trance is in full swing and here come the funny logicals
JoelP silly Neuro-Linguini Programmsters :)
Dan_25 (back to context reframing)
Phoenix Well lets CHARGE forward our BATTERY of knowledge and en LIGHT ON the world
StefanL Programmsters, Pranksters you mean.
Dan_25 generative change. . .
Jonathan I sure get a CHARGE out of these topics ... generative change = Inflationary dimes
Actually Reaching Closure
Phoenix Well, I will wrap up and say THANKS JONATHAN you keep the flame of curiosity burning brighter than anyone I know and with one flame you DO light up the world
Jonathan You guys have ALL been great here. This went REALLY well. Thanks to all of you -- you folks are what make it work.
bro_p Agreed
Dan_25 Best one thus far i've attended, thanks Jonathan, and EVERYBODY!!!
Jonathan That's why I don't start out with a lecture. That's why I don't start with academic lists. If you don't get the intent, you'll never use the list (which you can get elsewhere, anyway).
dmax Thanks
Dan_25 Keep in mind topics requests for the future (metaprograms! metaprograms! metaprograms!)
Jonathan Will Do.
Phoenix Eye eye, captain!
IRC CHAT OVER!

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